[WSBARP] Suicide disclosure

Mon Jun 26 12:10:59 PDT 2023

I remember a Supreme Court case 12 years or so ago that did hold the failure to disclose a murder was grounds for termination or recission of a home sale. Seems like it was Division II out of Lewis County or SW WA. 

Sincerely,

Tom

Thomas J. Westbrook

Attorney at Law

324 West Bay Drive NW, Suite 201

Olympia, WA 98502

(360) 866-4000 phone

(360) 866--3832 fax

www.buddbaylaw.com <http://www.buddbaylaw.com/> 

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From: wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Bryce Dille
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2023 11:34 AM
To: WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: Re: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure

I think the exception to that would be if the seller knew that the buyer, for whatever reason would not purchase the property if there had been a suicide or murder on the property, and that was a material inducement to the buyer that in that case the seller would have an obligation to disclose But only if the seller knew that this was a material condition to the buyers purchase of the property 

Bryce H. Dille 

Dille Law, PLLC

Office: 360-350-0270

Cell: 253-579-5561

** Please note that I use the dictation feature of my iPhone and that sometimes everything I say does not get properly translated**

On Jun 26, 2023, at 11:20 AM, Eric Nelsen <eric at sayrelawoffices.com <mailto:eric at sayrelawoffices.com> > wrote:

I have to agree with Mark that the focus of the law is entirely on the physical condition of the property. I can’t think of any situation where a person has a duty to disclose an event that occurred in the past, unless the event proximately caused a change in the physical condition of the property, as physical condition can be shown by admissible evidence in court. That is what removes any argument about having to disclose a suicide, or a murder, or anything similar.

Some buyers will be unsettled when they learn of such a past event, even to the point where had they known that the event took place in the house, they wouldn’t have purchased it. But there is no legal remedy for that because the seller has no duty of disclosure and even if they did, the buyer cannot provide by admissible evidence that the physical condition of the property was impaired by the event.

Sincerely,

Eric

Eric C. Nelsen

Sayre Law Offices, PLLC

1417 31st Ave South

Seattle WA 98144-3909

206-625-0092

 <mailto:eric at sayrelawoffices.com> eric at sayrelawoffices.com

From: wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > On Behalf Of Mark Anderson
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2023 10:49 AM
To: WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: Re: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure

Without reference to the statutes or requisite forms, here are my broad-brush thoughts on disclosures.  If there is anything that affects the material condition of the property, especially anything the Buyer could have to deal with following the purchase, it should be disclosed.  The mere fact that an event, any event – including death, happened on the property should not matter to a Buyer unless the event directly affected the physical condition of the property or in any way had the potential to compromise the ability of the property to safely and properly serve its purpose (as a residence or commercial facility).  

Like Annie, I am not aware of anything in statutory or common law expressly excusing a Seller from disclosing suicide or other death in the sale of real estate.  On the other hand, I am not aware of anything in statutory or common law expressly requiring a Seller to disclose suicide or other death in the sale of real estate.

Finally, consider the circumstance where a family member in the house dies of natural causes and his/her surviving family continues to live there until eventually the house is sold.  Does anyone on this list really think that a Seller should disclose that their family member died there?   

Mark B. Anderson
ANDERSON LAW FIRM PLLC
821 Dock St  Ste 209  PMB 4-12
Tacoma, Washington 98402
+1 253-327-1750
+1 253-327-1751 (fax)
marka at mbaesq.com <mailto:marka at mbaesq.com> 
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From: wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > On Behalf Of Annie Fitzsimmons
Sent: 06/24/2023 8:17 AM
To: WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com> >; Roger Hawkes <roger at skyvalleylawyers.com <mailto:roger at skyvalleylawyers.com> >
Subject: Re: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure

Good Morning.  I know nothing about the new topic of discussion but I do not agree with the consensus regarding suicide disclosure.  I am not aware of anything in statutory or common law expressly excusing a seller from disclosing suicide or other death in the sale of real estate.  I believe it will be an issue of first impression the first time an appellate court hears the issue. 

RCW 18.86.010, the Agency Law, defines "Material Fact" to exclude suicide or other death from disclosures that real estate brokers are required to make.  However, the Seller Disclosure Act, RCW 64.06, mandates the questions a seller must answer in disclosing the condition of the property.  The final question on the residential form asks if there are any other "material defects" a buyer should know.  The Legislature did not use the same term ("Material Facts") as used in the Agency Law and did not refer back to RCW 18.86 in defining the information that a seller must give buyer.   

I am not aware of any other common or statutory law limiting a seller's obligation to disclose.  Based on that, I have always concluded that while the Legislature has addressed the issue for real estate brokers, Washington law has not provided an answer as to seller's obligation. 

There are certainly arguments to be made in defense of a seller not having to disclose ... the Legislature could have asked that question directly on Form 17 if they wanted the disclosure, for example.  Similarly, however, there are arguments favoring seller making the disclosure ... the Legislature could easily have referred back to the definition of "Material Fact" had the Legislature intended to give seller the same disclosure obligation as brokers.  Consequently, I believe the question is ripe for litigation and if your advice to your seller client is that they are absolutely excused from disclosing suicide or other death in the property, I think you put yourself at risk in resolution of the issue. 

My two cents ... 

-- Annie Fitzsimmons 

Annette T. Fitzsimmons P.S.
P.O. Box 430
Belfair, WA 98528

On 06/24/2023 7:32 AM MDT Roger Hawkes <roger at skyvalleylawyers.com <mailto:roger at skyvalleylawyers.com> > wrote: 

😊I can’t say I now understand it.  Couldn’t then either😊

Harry Cross was my prof.

From: wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > On Behalf Of Joshua Grant
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2023 8:12 PM
To: WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: Re: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure

I retired  as a county judge… before that when I would get a law student Rule 9… , and the supervising attorney was in the back row, I would say: “Welcome to Lincoln County counsel, I see this is your first time here.. we have a local rule that you must pass a test to practice here… and it is easy, only one question, define the term incorporeal hereditament”.. lawyer in back seat is trying not to laugh out loud…  never had more than a frozen gaze,..  waiting for “well in real property law there is this bundle of sticks….” Never happened.. then I said “oh o.k. we can proceed”.

So I was delighted to see this response.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Josh

Joshua F. Grant

<image001.png>

P. O. Box 619
Wilbur, WA 99185
509 647 5578 

 <mailto:jgrant at advocateslg.com> jgrant at advocateslg.com

From: wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > On Behalf Of Roger Hawkes
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2023 1:50 PM
To: WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: Re: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure

And I thought ‘incorporeal hereditaments’ was the real hoot😊

From: wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > On Behalf Of Lynn Clare
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2023 1:26 PM
To: WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: Re: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure

There was a New York case we read in law school where a party sold a "haunted" B and B that had been on some kind of advertised ghost tour. The buyers didn't know about it until later and sued. The court held that "having persistently held out the house as haunted, Sellers are estopped from claiming that it isn't. The house is, as a matter of law, haunted."

It was a hoot.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 12:40 PM Inge Fordham <inge at fordhamlegal.com <mailto:inge at fordhamlegal.com> > wrote:

That’s one I haven’t heard of … failure to disclose ghost haunting property.  Thanks for this gem.  😊

<image002.png>

Inge A. Fordham | Attorney

Fordham Law, PLLC

3218 Sixth Avenue | Tacoma, WA 98406

Office: (253) 348-2657 | Mobile: (206) 778-3131

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From: wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > on behalf of Bryce Dille <Bryce at dillelaw.com <mailto:Bryce at dillelaw.com> >
Date: Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:57 AM
To: WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: Re: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure

You are correct years ago I represented the Realtor who sold a house where owners mother had committed suicide which wasn’t disclosed and the buyer sued for non disclosure saying the Ghost of the deceased was still in the property crt dismissed saying no requirement of disclosure

Bryce H. Dille

Dille Law, PLLC

2010 Caton Way SW Ste. 101

Olympia, WA 98502

Office: 360-350-0270

Cell: 253-579-5561

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** Please note that I use the dictation feature of my iPhone and that sometimes everything I say does not get properly translated**

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Business Entity Creation and Management, Business, Government and Tax Law, Real Estate and Land Use, Residential, Commercial and Condominium Development Real Estate and Commercial Transactions & Closings, Including Performing Services as IRS Section 1031 Exchange Facilitator Estate Planning, including Wills and Trusts, and Probate Administration Representation Homeowners/Condominium Association Real Estate Developments Real Property Foreclosures and Forfeitures.

From: wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > On Behalf Of Inge Fordham
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2023 11:42 AM
To: WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: Re: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure

My understanding is that in the State of Washington, sellers are not required to disclose a death on the property (whether by murder, suicide, etc.).

<image002.png>

Inge A. Fordham | Attorney

Fordham Law, PLLC

3218 Sixth Avenue | Tacoma, WA 98406

Office: (253) 348-2657 | Mobile: (206) 778-3131

www.fordhamlegal.com

Confidential Communication: This email is sent to a recipient on behalf of an attorney/law firm, and is information intended exclusively for the individual, entity or company to which it is sent.  This communication may contain proprietary, privileged or confidential information or may otherwise be legally exempt from disclosure other than to the intended recipient.  If you are not the named addressee, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy or otherwise disseminate this message or any part of it.  If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately by email or other communication and delete all copies of the message.

From: wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > on behalf of Craig Gourley <craig at glgmail.com <mailto:craig at glgmail.com> >
Date: Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:35 AM
To: WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure

Listmates, does anyone know what the seller’s disclosure requirement ( if any) is when someone has committed suicide in a home?  Thanks, Craig

GOURLEY LAW GROUP

THE EXCHANGE CONNECTION

SNOHOMISH ESCROW 

P.O. Box 1091

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