[WSBARP] Landlord Question - Next legislative session

[Jim Doran]

Who is going to pitch this  To the the Governor?

On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 8:07 PM <scott at scottgthomaslaw.com> wrote:

> With respect, I point out that Section 8 housing is known, accepted, and
> there is a lot of infrastructure already in place.  Local service agencies
> are familiar with it, and able to provide tenants with assistance.  A
> temporary expansion would be quick and relatively easy.
>
>
>
> *From:* wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <
> wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> *On Behalf Of *Eric Nelsen
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 19, 2020 2:48 PM
> *To:* WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [WSBARP] Landlord Question - Next legislative session
>
>
>
> Jim, I think that could be a great solution. Personally I would advocate
> for putting most of the administrative burden on the landlord, to apply for
> relief and work with the tenant to get the tenant’s cooperation in
> providing necessary information to provide to the state. The tenant’s
> incentive would be that, if they cooperate with the landlord, they get
> protection from eviction; otherwise not. (And eviction would be contingent
> on showing that landlord made necessary efforts to let tenant know about
> the options and gave them reasonable opportunity to take advantage of the
> protection.)
>
>
>
> I think landlords are better situated than tenants in financial distress,
> in terms of resources and time, to deal with the bureaucratic details. Too
> many benefit programs fail because they are too complicated or require too
> much sustained effort from the intended beneficiary, a person who is in an
> unstable and precarious position. Also, there are fewer landlords than
> tenants, which would reduce the state’s administrative burden because the
> bigger landlords would, through repetition, get proficient at providing
> exactly the right information in a format that makes it easier for the
> state to confirm. Plus, the payments would go to the landlord so the
> landlord has to be in touch with the state anyway.
>
>
>
> I can imagine some privacy issues cropping up, for tenants giving info to
> landlords, so it might take some tweaking. And perhaps tenants could apply
> themselves if they wished, if the landlord isn’t cooperative.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> Eric C. Nelsen
>
> Sayre Law Offices, PLLC
>
> 1417 31st Ave South
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/1417+31st+Ave+South+Seattle+WA+98144-3909?entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> Seattle WA 98144-3909
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/1417+31st+Ave+South+Seattle+WA+98144-3909?entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> 206-625-0092
>
> eric at sayrelawoffices.com
>
>
>
> *Covid-19 Update - *All attorneys are working remotely during regular
> business hours and are available via email and by phone. Videoconferencing
> also is available. Signing of estate planning documents can be completed
> and will be handled on a case-by-case basis. Please direct mail and
> deliveries to the Seattle office.
>
>
>
> *From:* wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <
> wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> *On Behalf Of *Jim Doran
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 19, 2020 1:09 PM
> *To:* WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [WSBARP] Landlord Question - Next legislative session
>
>
>
> Wow.  what a brilliant string of thoughts.  One of you, buried down the
> string quite a ways, articulated what I would call the best analysis.  I
> would like to add just a bit.
>
>
>
> The brilliant one said, and I am paraphrasing, that one of the purposes of
> the federal government in times like these is to step up to help.  In this
> case that would have (and probably still could) meant that a landlord -
> tenant relief bill be adopted until the end of the pandemic.  If a tenant
> could show that he/she was financially disadvantaged because of the Covid
> and filled out the paperwork, then the tenant's rent would be paid directly
> to the landlord.  If the tenant did not qualify or simply did not take the
> time and effort to fill out the forms and go to the interview, then the
> regular rules of unlawful detainer would apply.  Pretty simple.  There are
> details, of course.
>
>
>
> Yes, this would create another layer of bureaucracy at the state level and
> would take some time to set up.  An interim forbearance could be allowed.
> However, this landlord - tenant relief bill is better than all the terrible
> predictions that have been brought up in this email discussion.  I believe
> the harm will be very substantial if a process like this is not developed
> and implemented.
>
>
>
> Why wasn't it developed and implemented?  (Or, where does the real fault
> lie?)  If the federal government had addressed the Covid pandemic in a
> professional way, the need for the landlord - tenant relief bill would have
> been vetted and most likely funded by a significant fund to the individual
> states for the purposes stated.  But, as we know, the President didn't step
> up.  The real core of this problem is failed leadership at the top.
>
>
>
> I appreciate all of the comments, even the two from Voltaire.  But I would
> like whoever it was who had this brilliant idea to step forward and be
> recognized.  It is the only real solution to this situation.  I have said
> many times, "I may not ever have a creative idea, but I sure do recognize
> one when I hear it."
>
>
>
> Thank you all for the focus on this.  Are we going to try to outlast the
> Covid....for another 8 months... or try to get something like this from the
> Biden Administration?  That's the question now.
>
>
>
> James Doran
>
> James R. Doran
>
> Attorney at Law
>
> 100 E. Pine Street -
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/E.+Pine+Street+-+Suite+205+Bellingham,+WA+98225?entry=gmail&source=g>
> Suite 205
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/E.+Pine+Street+-+Suite+205+Bellingham,+WA+98225?entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> Bellingham, WA 98225
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/E.+Pine+Street+-+Suite+205+Bellingham,+WA+98225?entry=gmail&source=g>
> (360)393-9506
>
> jim at doranlegal.com
>
> www.doranlegal.com
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 11:39 AM Lenard Wittlake <lwlaw at my180.net> wrote:
>
> Mr. Long is correct, imho.  He is not talking about removing landlords
> from their homes.  He is talking about the government taking control of
> dwellings away from the landlord owners.  That is expropriation of
> dwellings, even if temporarily.
>
>
>
> As for mob rule, that *was* a concern of the founders (we were pretty
> much started by disfavored minorities that fled slaughter in other places)
> and that is relevant in analyzing the use of emergency powers which has
> stripped away all of the protections mentioned.  The pandemic is the reason
> for invoking emergency powers.  The problem under discussion is the way the
> powers are used, who benefits and who pays. So I have an opinion about why
> a politician would choose to lay the burden on landlords instead of broader
> society.  At least these days no one gets killed over differences of
> opinion …. oh, wait..
>
>
>
> There are valid points and concerns on the right and the left.  But our
> society seems to not care about coming to a consensus that works for more
> than a mere majority (I live in OR where Portland can outvote the rest of
> the state).  But our system has worked better than most others, until
> emergency powers are used based on politics instead of rational analysis
> and problem solving.  That Canadian idea someone mentioned makes sense to
> me.
>
>
>
>
>
> Lenard L Wittlake, PLLC
>
> Attorney & Counselor at Law
>
> 22 East Poplar Street, Suite 202
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/22+East+Poplar+Street,+Suite+202?entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> P.O. Box 1233
>
> Walla Walla, WA 99362
>
> (509) 529-1529 voice
>
> (509) 850-3515 fax
>
> www.lwattorney.com
>
> Lenard at wittlakelaw.com
>
>
>
> The information contained in this email may be privileged, confidential or
>
> otherwise protected from disclosure.  If you received this email in error,
>
> please reply to the sender that you have received this information in error
>
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>
>
>
> *From:* wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com [mailto:
> wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com] *On Behalf Of *Eric Nelsen
> *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2020 10:08 AM
> *To:* WSBA Real Property Listserv
> *Subject:* Re: [WSBARP] Landlord Question - Next legislative session
>
>
>
> Life tenure for federal judges, the apportionment of the US Senate, and
> the electoral college, being the antimajoritarian aspects of the structure
> of federal government, don’t seem relevant to this Washington state
> discussion. The Washington State bicameral legislature is proportionally
> representative in both houses and operates by majority rule in both houses.
> Our judges are elected at every level all the way up to the Supreme Court.
> I don’t think any of that has changed since the state was founded in 1889.
>
>
>
> I suppose a judiciary can be considered to some extent “antimajoritarian”
> simply by its existence, in that rule of law helps prevent mob rule and
> re-channels efforts to change the law to the legislative process. But a
> judiciary is also upholding the laws enacted by the legislature, which is
> basically a pro-majoritarian function.
>
>
>
> Hairsplitting about Constitutional Republic versus Representative
> Democracy doesn’t change the fact that self-governance, by either
> structure, involves consent of all to abide by the collective decision of
> the government. That is, by definition, rule of law.
>
>
>
> So if our self-governmental process--the state legislature--changes the
> legal landscape in a way that prioritizes life or liberty over certain
> property rights, that is not tyranny just because one might disagree with
> the decision. A lawyer who stands against that process would be, by
> definition, *opposing* the rule of law.
>
>
>
> None of which means a lawyer can’t fiercely advocate for a change in the
> law, or argue regulatory taking or whatever. But that’s not an
> “antimajoritarian” role for lawyers as a group; that’s individual advocacy
> within the law.
>
>
>
> It’s incoherent to argue that “rule of law” prevents the legislature from
> changing the law. If one doesn’t like the change, one is simply arguing for
> the status quo. Of course one has a right to do so; but it does not make
> that person a righteous defender of rule of law, or a principled
> antimajoritarian. It’s just a political position, and win or lose the
> legislative battle, I would expect compliance with the law.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> Eric C. Nelsen
>
> Sayre Law Offices, PLLC
>
> 1417 31st Ave South
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/1417+31st+Ave+South+Seattle+WA+98144-3909?entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> Seattle WA 98144-3909
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/1417+31st+Ave+South+Seattle+WA+98144-3909?entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> 206-625-0092
>
> eric at sayrelawoffices.com
>
>
>
> *Covid-19 Update - *All attorneys are working remotely during regular
> business hours and are available via email and by phone. Videoconferencing
> also is available. Signing of estate planning documents can be completed
> and will be handled on a case-by-case basis. Please direct mail and
> deliveries to the Seattle office.
>
>
>
> *From:* K. Garl Long <Garl at longlaw.biz>
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 17, 2020 5:50 PM
> *To:* WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>; Eric
> Nelsen <eric at sayrelawoffices.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [WSBARP] Landlord Question - Next legislative session
>
>
>
> Our country was founded as a Constitutional Republic, not an absolute
> Democracy. We did this to avoid the institution of tyranny by the
> majority.  We did this to protect the minority, to assure that each person,
> would have the inalienable right live life in liberty, to pursue happiness
> without fearing deprivation by the majority.
>
> It is true that our constitutions have been much weakened, it may be that
> this will continue until the majority can trample unfettered on the rights
> of disfavored groups; it will most certainly occur if lawyers do not stand
> for the rule of law, especially against the majority.
>
> KGL
>
>
>
> On 12/17/2020 05:34 PM, Eric Nelsen wrote:
>
> It would be good for some real property lawyers to be involved in further
> discussions of the moratoria, and certainly anything as consequential as
> legislation.
>
>
>
> “Outvoting y’all” is also called majority rule in a democracy. That rests
> on the social contract, that for the greater good of all, the minority
> agrees to abide by the decision of the majority. There is a flood of
> opinionated people in this country right now who appear to have forgotten
> that. I would hope that lawyers as a group have not forgotten. If our
> legislators change the priorities between property rights and life and
> liberty interests, that is how self-governance works.
>
>
>
> “Expropriation of dwellings” bollocks. No *landlord* is being removed
> from their home. Landlords’ right to use the courts to enforce payment of
> rent is being temporarily blocked during a health emergency. The debt
> remains owing and there will be a huge financial and legal mess to clean
> up. But I think calling it “expropriation of dwellings” is hardly
> appropriate.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> Eric C. Nelsen
>
> Sayre Law Offices, PLLC
>
> 1417 31st Ave South
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/1417+31st+Ave+South+Seattle+WA+98144-3909?entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> Seattle WA 98144-3909
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/1417+31st+Ave+South+Seattle+WA+98144-3909?entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> 206-625-0092
>
> eric at sayrelawoffices.com
>
>
>
> *Covid-19 Update - *All attorneys are working remotely during regular
> business hours and are available via email and by phone. Videoconferencing
> also is available. Signing of estate planning documents can be completed
> and will be handled on a case-by-case basis. Please direct mail and
> deliveries to the Seattle office.
>
>
>
> *From:* wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com
> <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> *On
> Behalf Of *Lenard Wittlake
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 17, 2020 4:36 PM
> *To:* 'WSBA Real Property Listserv' <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [WSBARP] Landlord Question - Next legislative session
>
>
>
> So there you have it.  There are enough who “vehemently support” the
> “expropriation of dwellings” that they can now outvote y’all, so what do
> you expect from politicians?
>
>
>
> Since the Governor has not “surgically” addressed the overreach problems
> in four iterations of the moratorium, it is not likely going to happen in
> the fifth.
>
>
>
> It appears to be time for the section to organize an evaluation of the
> proposed legislation.  I assume our appointed leaders are working on such.
>
>
>
> Lenard L Wittlake, PLLC
>
> Attorney & Counselor at Law
>
> 22 East Poplar Street, Suite 202
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/22+East+Poplar+Street,+Suite+202?entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> P.O. Box 1233
>
> Walla Walla, WA 99362
>
> (509) 529-1529 voice
>
> (509) 850-3515 fax
>
> www.lwattorney.com
>
> Lenard at wittlakelaw.com
>
>
>
> The information contained in this email may be privileged, confidential or
>
> otherwise protected from disclosure.  If you received this email in error,
>
> please reply to the sender that you have received this information in error
>
> and delete this email.
>
>
>
> *From:* wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com [
> mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com
> <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>] *On Behalf Of *Christy M
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 17, 2020 2:41 PM
> *To:* WSBA Real Property Listserv
> *Subject:* Re: [WSBARP] Landlord Question - Next legislative session
>
>
>
> I, for one, do not meekly accept; I vehemently support.
>
>
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
>
> From: "K. Garl Long" <Garl at longlaw.biz>
>
> Date: 12/17/20 2:15 PM (GMT-08:00)
>
> To: WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [WSBARP] Landlord Question - Next legislative session
>
>
>
> If you choose to put money that you have earned into the pocket of the
> owner of a dwelling, in exchange for the privilege of living there, it is
> called a contract.
>
> If the government expropriates the dwelling from the owner so that you can
> live there without paying, it is theft. You may recall that the Intolerable
> Acts included such expropriation of dwellings.  This is what our founders
> fought against, and which we now meekly accept.
>
> KGL
>
>
>
> On 12/17/2020 01:55 PM, Andrew Hay wrote:
>
> Voltaire again … As far as his notion of government taking money from one
> class and giving to another, as a non-landlord, I see my money going to
>  the pockets of landlords.  I fund governmental benefits with my taxes.
> Those benefits are paid to landlords for rent.  Generally, rent paid to
> landlords by those on government benefits is a disproportionately high
> percentage of their income.  Voltaire would likely conclude the landlords
> are the ones benefitting from this governmental transfer.
>
> Perhaps the moratorium suspends this transfer to landlords to allow my
> taxes to temporarily fund pandemic relief.
>
>
>
> *Andrew Hay*
>
> Hay & Swann PLLC
>
> 201 S. 34th St.
>
> Tacoma, WA 98418
>
> *www.washingtonlaw.net
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonlaw.net%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7C3ad32d5fc4764794e46e08d8a2d935b8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637438401075055698%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=DtUXJVBQr9jrfAcs0VP8AjpgaqzovLn11GNixl6v0Ug%3D&reserved=0>*
>
> *andrewhay at washingtonlaw.net <andrewhay at washingtonlaw.net>*
>
> 253.272.2400 (w)
>
> 253.377.3085 (c)
>
> THIS IS A CONFIDENTIAL COMMUNICATION AND IS INTENDED FOR THE DESIGNATED
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>
> *From:* wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com [
> mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com
> <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>] *On Behalf Of *K. Garl Long
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 17, 2020 1:34 PM
> *To:* WSBA Real Property Listserv; Rob Rowley
> *Subject:* Re: [WSBARP] Landlord Question - Next legislative session
>
>
>
> *It is not inequality which is the real misfortune, it is dependence. *Voltaire
> again.
>
>
>
> On 12/17/2020 11:25 AM, Rob Rowley wrote:
>
> In general, the art of government consists of taking as much money as
> possible from one class of citizens to give to another.  Voltaire.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <
> wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> *On Behalf Of *Chris B
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 17, 2020 10:59 AM
> *To:* WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [WSBARP] Landlord Question - Next legislative session
>
>
>
> I just entered into an agreement to sell 4 of my 12 rental homes as a
> package.  All will be town down and replaced with McMansions. These are
> nice homes that I am proud to own, two of which have tenants in them for
> more than 10 years.  While all my tenants are current in their rent, I no
> longer wish to be in the rental housing business in a state that is clearly
> trying to kill that business.
>
>
>
> As they say, it is “a feature, not a bug.”
>
>
>
> Chris Benis
>
> Hecker, Wakefield & Feilberg, P.S.
>
> 321 First Avenue West, Seattle, WA
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/321+First+Avenue+West,+Seattle,+WA+98119?entry=gmail&source=g>
> 98119
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/321+First+Avenue+West,+Seattle,+WA+98119?entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> 206.447-1900 office – 206.447.9075 fax – www. heckerwakefield.com
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fheckerwakefield.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7C3ad32d5fc4764794e46e08d8a2d935b8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637438401075065693%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=yX6TEYkb2qMyn9cK3xUbOGsIz48aS9fz2uX8r%2FF%2FIxE%3D&reserved=0>
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>
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> *From:* wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <
> wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> *On Behalf Of *Rani K. Sampson
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 17, 2020 10:51 AM
> *To:* WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [WSBARP] Landlord Question - Next legislative session
>
>
>
> The long-term consequences of forcing landlords to absorb large financial
> losses are predictable:  landlords will liquidate their real estate
> investments (they’ll sell).  Tenants will have much less housing to choose
> from.  Rental houses will be incredibly hard to find.  The void might be
> filled by corporate landlords building apartments or government landlords
> building projects.
>
>
>
> This is very bad for tenants, long term.  The loss of rental housing will
> affect all of us.
>
>
>
> *Rani K. Sampson*
>
> Overcast Law Offices | Attorney
>
> 23 S Wenatchee Ave #320, Wenatchee WA 98801
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/23+S+Wenatchee+Ave+%23320,+Wenatchee+WA+98801?entry=gmail&source=g>
> | (509) 663-5588 x 6
>
>
>
> *From:* wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <
> wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> *On Behalf Of *Kary Krismer
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 17, 2020 10:37 AM
> *To:* wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com
> *Subject:* Re: [WSBARP] Landlord Question - Next legislative session
>
>
>
> You're generalizing.  The moratorium protects an entire class regardless
> of their need, at the expense of another class, regardless of their need.
> If it were based on economics I'd have little problem with it, but it's
> not.  Beyond that though, I'm worried about the long term adverse effects
> on those who actually need the protection.  The moratorium may have given
> them a false sense of security and lead them to make bad decisions.  Back
> when I practiced law I did primarily debtor bankruptcy and the moratorium
> is likely causing people to make decisions that no competent financial
> planner would ever advise them to make.
>
> Also, you can't even assume someone who rents cannot afford to own.  They
> may just not wish to own for many different reasons.
>
> Kary L. Krismer
>
> 206 723-2148
>
> On 12/17/2020 10:20 AM, Andrew Hay wrote:
>
> I will take the pro moratorium position.  Donning my suit of armor at the
> same time…..
>
>
>
> This is a time of great economic pain due to a pandemic unequaled by any
> health crisis in 100 years.  The moratoriums are a policy protecting the
> most vulnerable people in the population as a whole – renters.  As a group
> they are either poor or old or both.  They are people who can’t afford
> homes due to lack of wealth.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
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-- 
James R. Doran
Attorney at Law
100 E. Pine Street -  Suite 205
Bellingham, WA 98225
(360)393-9506
jim at doranlegal.com
www.doranlegal.com
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