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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Thanks Amy. I must admit that after that research and further consideration, I stopped using statutory terms altogether. I now include a clear definition of either
<i>per stirpes</i> or <i>per capita at each generation</i>, after asking the client (if relevant/warranted) to consider that if their own children or siblings were ALL dead, would they want grandchildren/nieces/nephews at that point to be treated equally (per
capita) or to share the share </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">😉</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> their surviving parent would have gotten.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">It’s definitely an “Aha! Whoa! . . . ” moment for many clients, especially ones with one child with 5 children and one child with 1 child. Or no descendants and only siblings
with nieces and nephews, say.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I choose to avoid “representation” altogether, in both Idaho and Washington, personally, so that there is nothing to “interpret” and a court is interpreting the document
only and not resorting to elaborate case law on “representation” if it gets to that point.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Just battle-weary experience from one of my early cases after moving back to the Idaho/Washington region.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lewis, Amy C.<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 1, 2023 2:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Class of contingent beneficiaries<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">With regard to documents we are drafting, this goes back to Phil’s comment yesterday that if we have to look this up we have failed in our drafting.
<span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">😊</span> That being said, we routinely use “by right of representation” in our documents. Something like “the residue of my estate shall be divided into equal shares, one share for each of my children
who survives me and one share for each child who does not survive me but leaves surviving descendants. Each share for a deceased child shall be distributed to the descendants of the deceased child by right of representation.”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:0in">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Amy Lewis, Attorney<br>
Pronouns she/her/hers<br>
<img width="211" height="68" style="width:2.1964in;height:.7083in" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D9DCE6.2EFC3650"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">909 A Street, Suite 600 | Tacoma, WA 98402<br>
phone 253.572.4500 | fax 253.272.5732 |</span><span style="color:#777777"> </span>
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:#777777"><a href="http://www.eisenhowerlaw.com/"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#C00000;text-decoration:none">www.eisenhowerlaw.com</span></a></span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Joshua McKarcher<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 1, 2023 2:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Class of contingent beneficiaries<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Heather and Rebecca,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I mean to engender no dispute, because this doesn't really matter until it does, but see below and attached and consider that neither Blacks nor Washington's statute addresses anything below.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Imagine a decedent with 6 nieces and nephews as his intestate heirs: 5 of them by one sibling and 1 of them by a second sibling. Assume all survive and there were no predeceased.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Does his $2 million go:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">$1 million to the 1 nephew and $1 million shared among the other 5?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">OR<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">$2 million divided 6 ways?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">"Strict per stirpes" gives you the first outcome; modern "representation" (as usually implemented by most states who have it) gives you the second . . . because most definitions of "representation" require you to make the first division
of the estate at the nearest generational level with at least one surviving heir.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Per stirpes does not.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">The UPC has noodled with different versions of these phrases over its life.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I'm sorry to throw this wrench at people, but this is not my imagination. If the copyright gods will please forgive me, see the attached and enjoy the long weekend!
<span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">😊</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Best, Josh <span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> On Behalf Of Rebecca King<br>
Sent: Friday, September 1, 2023 2:22 PM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Class of contingent beneficiaries<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I agree with Heather. "Per stirpes" and "by right of representation" are the same thing. See definition of representation under RCW 11.02.005:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> (17) "Representation" refers to a method of determining distribution in which the takers are in unequal degrees of kinship with respect to a decedent, and is accomplished as follows: After first determining who, of those
entitled to share in the estate, are in the nearest degree of kinship, the estate is divided into equal shares, the number of shares being the sum of the number of persons who survive the decedent who are in the nearest degree of kinship and the
number of persons in the same degree of kinship who died before the decedent but who left issue surviving the decedent; each share of a deceased person in the nearest degree must be divided among those of the deceased person's issue who survive the
decedent and have no ancestor then living who is in the line of relationship between them and the decedent, those more remote in degree taking together the share which their ancestor would have taken had he or she survived the decedent.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Warmest regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Rebecca King<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Attorney<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Northwest Elder Law Group<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">2150 N. 107th Street, Suite 501<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Seattle, WA 98133<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Main: (206) 937-6102<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Direct Line and Fax: (206) 866-6544<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Providing Services in Elder Law<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information protected by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure
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<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">From: <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">
<span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</span></a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</span></a>> On Behalf
Of Heather de Vrieze<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Sent: Friday, September 1, 2023 2:03 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</span></a>><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Class of contingent beneficiaries<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I can't see your chart, but I think they are the same. Black's Law Dictionary agrees with this.
<a href="https://thelawdictionary.org/per-stirpes/"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://thelawdictionary.org/per-stirpes/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">PER STIRPES Definition & Legal Meaning<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Definition & Citations:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Lat. By roots or stocks; by representation. This term, derived from the civil law, is much used in the law of descents and distribution, and denotes that method of dividing an intestate estate where a class or group of distributees take
the share which their stock (a deceased ancestor) would have been entitled to, taking thus by their right of representing such ancestor, and not as so many individuals; while other heirs, who stand in equal degree with such ancestor to the decedent, take each
a share equal to his. See Rotmanskey v. Heiss, 86 Md. 633, 39 Atl. 415.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Heather<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Heather S. de Vrieze<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Attorney-at-Law<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">de Vrieze | Carney PLLC<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">3909 California Avenue SW<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Seattle, WA 98116-3705<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">(206)938-5500<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a href="mailto:heatherd@westseattlelaw.com"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">heatherd@westseattlelaw.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a href="http://www.westseattlelaw.com"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">www.westseattlelaw.com</span></a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">CONFIDENTIAL & PRIVILEGED. This e-mail message may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this e-mail message
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<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">From: <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">
<span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</span></a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</span></a>> On Behalf
Of Susan Donahue<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Sent: Friday, September 1, 2023 1:35 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">To: <a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Class of contingent beneficiaries<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I appreciate this discussion. I made this chart to explain the three kinds of beneficiaries. Maybe too simple. But I’m my chart (mind) per stirpes and by representation are two distinct distribution schemes. Am I wrong in this chart?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Susan Donahue <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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