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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:blue">Bill Viall<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:blue"><a href="mailto:Billviall3@gmail.com">Billviall3@gmail.com</a>
</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:blue">Attorney</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:blue">12823 W San Pablo Dr.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:blue">Sun City West, AZ 85375</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:blue">(623) 328-8469</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:blue">Licensed in AZ and WA</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<font size="4" color="#777777"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><o:p style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">
<p style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; MARGIN: 0in 0in 6pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Amy Lewis,
Attorney<br>Pronouns she/her/hers<br></span><img style="HEIGHT: 68px; WIDTH: 211px" src="cid:Logo_fa335a1d-9f24-4802-a3dd-b58f259e3c98.png" width="211" height="68" border="0"><br></p></o:p></font></font></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><span style="COLOR: #000000"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">909 A Street, Suite
600 | Tacoma, WA 98402<br></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><strong style="COLOR: #000000"></strong>phone 253.572.4500 | fax 253.272.5732
|</span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </span><a href="http://www.eisenhowerlaw.com/"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #c00000; text-underline: none">www.eisenhowerlaw.com</span></a></font>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Emily Wilson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 23, 2023 1:13 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] WSBAPT Digest, Vol 107, Issue 22<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hello Listmates,<br>
<br>
I'm looking for a reputable attorney in Phoenix who to advise 88 year old with modifications to a Trust. I'd appreciate any contacts you can share.
<br>
<br>
Thanks, <br>
<br>
Emily Wilson ² Attorney/Owner<br>
Spokane Wills, Trusts, and Probate<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:Emily@SpokaneWTP.com">Emily@SpokaneWTP.com</a><br>
Phone: 509-324-2431 <br>
<a href="http://www.SpokaneWTP.com">http://www.SpokaneWTP.com</a> <br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> On Behalf Of
<a href="mailto:wsbapt-request@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-request@lists.wsbarppt.com</a><br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 4:25 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a><br>
Subject: WSBAPT Digest, Vol 107, Issue 22<br>
<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Probate discovery v. TEDRA discovery (Bruce Moen)<br>
2. Re: Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit (Paul Neumiller)<br>
3. Re: Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit (Philip N. Jones)<br>
4. Contingent beneficiary in TOD deed? (<a href="mailto:susan@pepetersonlaw.com">susan@pepetersonlaw.com</a>)<br>
5. Death of probate beneficiary in a TEDRA case (Candace Wilkerson)<br>
6. Re: Contingent beneficiary in TOD deed? (Candace Wilkerson)<br>
7. Re: Death of probate beneficiary in a TEDRA case (Roger Hawkes)<br>
8. Re: Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit (Roger Hawkes)<br>
9. Re: Probate discovery v. TEDRA discovery (Roger Hawkes)<br>
10. Re: Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit (Paul Neumiller)<br>
11. Re: Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit (Jennifer L White)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 19:24:17 +0000<br>
From: Bruce Moen <<a href="mailto:brm@moenlaw.com">brm@moenlaw.com</a>><br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Probate discovery v. TEDRA discovery<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:MW4PR04MB7283CA3F000DBF39722BAED0BB1AA@MW4PR04MB7283.namprd04.prod.outlook.com">MW4PR04MB7283CA3F000DBF39722BAED0BB1AA@MW4PR04MB7283.namprd04.prod.outlook.com</a>><br>
<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>
<br>
Eric,<br>
<br>
So how to get the court to rule that the Civil Rules do not apply?<br>
<br>
I have argued CR 1 and Grasser v. Blakkolb many times over the years in the core probate administration (not a related TEDRA).<br>
<br>
Most recently on whether a party was entitled to a Protective Order on certain materials provided to the PR.<br>
<br>
And, of course, more complications then arise and you spend the next six months arguing about how the CRs apply when the CR should never have been an issue. Exasperation!<br>
<br>
My argument is almost always rejected on the basis of "Well, that may be true Mr. Moen but I'm going to apply the CR anyhow because everyone knows the CRs and it will provide guidance as we move along." I even had a Constitutional Commissioner (who should know
better) reply "I wouldn't<br>
know how to proceed without the CR."<br>
<br>
Is your experience different? How do you turn them around?<br>
<br>
Bruce Moen<br>
________________________________<br>
From: <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> on behalf of Eric Nelsen <<a href="mailto:eric@sayrelawoffices.com">eric@sayrelawoffices.com</a>><br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 11:59 AM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Probate discovery v. TEDRA discovery<br>
<br>
<br>
I think RCW 11.96A.115(2)<<a href="https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=11.96A.115">https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=11.96A.115</a>> controls and no discovery is permitted in an ordinary probate administration, without
first getting leave of court. On the occasions when I?ve wanted to issue subpoenas to recalcitrant banks et al., I submit an Ex Parte motion to get authority first. I don?t think anyone is entitled to notice of the motion so I generally have my Order the same
day.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The alternative method I have used is under the general authority of RCW 11.48.020<<a href="https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=11.48.020">https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=11.48.020</a>>, the PR?s right to possession
and control of all property of the decedent. That ?property? includes the decedent?s contractual rights with the bank, which includes decedent?s contractual right to receive information concerning the account, periodic statements, etc. So, instead of subpoena
power, I have sometimes submitted an Ex Parte motion for an order commanding a specific bank to turn over particular documents and information by a deadline. Basically like a subpoena, but it?s a direct order by the court instead.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
More generally: After many years of going back and forth I now think that none of the Civil Rules apply to a probate administration in any respect, unless they are specifically invoked or incorporated by a probate statute. Though I do use them as a template
for taking certain actions in probate?for example, I follow CR 70.1 and CR 71 when appearing or withdrawing for a party to a probate administration. Even if it?s not technically applicable, it?s sure to be applied by analogy by any judge analyzing whether
or not I have properly appeared or withdrawn from representing a client.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
CR 1 and CR 81 make the Civil Rules apply to ?civil proceedings.? I?ve never seen a definition of that, but I now think that it means only litigation matters. Probate administration is solely an administrative matter under the court?s equitable jurisdiction,
and is not a ?civil proceeding? except in the more general sense that it is a non-criminal proceeding.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The WSBA Civil Procedure Deskbook (3d ed. 2014), Ch. 1.6, states:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Although CR 1 applies by its terms to only civil actions, courts have suggested that the civil rules might be instructive in other contexts. In In re Estate of Toth, 138 Wn.2d 650, 655-67, 981 P.2d 439 (1999), for example, the court discussed, without deciding,
the possibility that CR 6(e) could apply to probate filing periods. But see Grasser v. Blakkolb, 12
<a href="http://Wn.App">
Wn.App</a>. 529, 530 P.2d 684 (1975), review denied, 85 Wn.2d 1005 (1975) (holding that the rejection of a claim in a probate matter is not a civil suit for purpose of CR 1, which restricts the application of Superior Court Civil Rules to suits of a civil nature).
Ultimately, the Toth court decided that even if the civil rules did apply to probate actions, rule 6(e) would not apply by its terms to the issue on appeal. Estate of Toth, 138 Wn.2d at 651.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Sincerely,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Eric<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Eric C. Nelsen<br>
<br>
Sayre Law Offices, PLLC<br>
<br>
1417 31st Ave South<br>
<br>
Seattle WA 98144-3909<br>
<br>
206-625-0092<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:eric@sayrelawoffices.com%3cmailto:eric@sayrelawoffices.com">eric@sayrelawoffices.com<mailto:eric@sayrelawoffices.com</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> On Behalf Of Dalynne Singleton<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 11:06 AM<br>
To: 'WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv' <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
Subject: [WSBAPT] Probate discovery v. TEDRA discovery<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I have reviewed RCW 11 and 11.96A and I know and have done discovery in TEDRA as discovery is allowed which encompasses subpoena powers, issuing subpoena duces tecum, deposition, interrogatories, etc.<br>
<br>
BUT, in a probate cause ? what discovery is allowed?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
In probate (not TEDRA), I have had occasion to issue a SDT to a bank and send to all counsel/heirs to object under CR 45. If no objection, then I issue the SDT and get bank records, usually to discover if JWROS, TOD accounts, access to bank records of decedent,
etc. I remember awhile back, someone posted authority that they believed there is no discovery allowed in probate w/o court order but can?t find that old post.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Anyone have an opinion on this issue and how you approach needing records in a probate cause?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dalynne Singleton<br>
<br>
Gourley Law Group<br>
<br>
Snohomish Escrow<br>
<br>
The Exchange Connection<br>
<br>
1002 10th Street / PO Box 1091<br>
<br>
Snohomish, WA 98291<br>
<br>
360.568.5065<br>
<br>
360.568.8092 fax<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:dalynne@glgmail.com%3cmailto:dalynne@glgmail.com">dalynne@glgmail.com<mailto:dalynne@glgmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
Website: <a href="http://www.glglawgroup.com">
www.glglawgroup.com</a><<a href="http://www.glglawgroup.com">http://www.glglawgroup.com/</a>><br>
<br>
Attorney/client meetings will be handled by teleconference or virtually whenever possible. If you would like to set a telephone conference, zoom, or in person meeting, please call or email one my paralegals
<a href="mailto:selina@glgmail.com%3cmailto:selina@glgmail.com">selina@glgmail.com<mailto:selina@glgmail.com</a>> or
<a href="mailto:elle@glgmail.com%3cmailto:elle@glgmail.com">elle@glgmail.com<mailto:elle@glgmail.com</a>>. My legal assistant can be reached at
<a href="mailto:paige@glgmail.com%3cmailto:paige@glgmail.com">paige@glgmail.com<mailto:paige@glgmail.com</a>>. Co-counsel Anna Thompson can be reached at
<a href="mailto:anna@glgmail.com%3cmailto:anna@glgmail.com">anna@glgmail.com<mailto:anna@glgmail.com</a>>.<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 21:06:45 +0000<br>
From: Paul Neumiller <<a href="mailto:pneumiller@hotmail.com">pneumiller@hotmail.com</a>><br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:MW3PR13MB39806F4BF710DDA849347F48D21AA@MW3PR13MB3980.namprd13.prod.outlook.com">MW3PR13MB39806F4BF710DDA849347F48D21AA@MW3PR13MB3980.namprd13.prod.outlook.com</a>><br>
<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
Thanks to all who respond, on and off-line.<br>
<br>
<br>
[<a href="cid:image001.jpg@01D9D114.0CAAEDE0">cid:image001.jpg@01D9D114.0CAAEDE0</a>]<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> On Behalf Of Philip N. Jones<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:53 AM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
<br>
That's a tough question.<br>
If you are not in the room, your client might say something odd.<br>
If you are in the room, APS might think you are a Svengali working on behalf of the evil wife.<br>
Perhaps you should talk to the APS person first and get a sense of how professional/reasonable the APS person is. If they seem OK, stay out.<br>
Very hard to say.<br>
Do you also represent the wife? I hope not.<br>
Phil Jones<br>
<br>
Philip N. Jones<br>
Duffy Kekel LLP<br>
900 S.W. Fifth Ave. Suite 2500<br>
Portland, OR 97204<br>
<a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com%3cmailto:pjones@duffykekel.com">pjones@duffykekel.com<mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com</a>><br>
(503) 226-1371 - office<br>
(503) 853-1482 - cell<br>
(503) 226-3574 - fax<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com%3cmailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com%3cmailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>> On
Behalf Of Paul Neumiller<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:37 AM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com%3cmailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>><br>
Subject: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
<br>
Listmates: Waaaay out of my wheel house. Recently remarried elderly client meets with me to change his estate planning. He wants to provide for his new wife (not everything, just a portion of his estate). Adult children from a previous marriage (and trust babies)
from CA have called the local Adult Protective Services and APS want to talk to my client (APS left a business card on my client's front door last night). Trust babies have an attorney in CA who argues to me that some documents are forged and that my client
is senile and that the new wife is taking advantage of my client. I personally feel the client is competent. My initial reaction is for the client to meet with APS and answer whatever questions APS has. APS will probably want to interview my client without
the new spouse in the room. Should I be in the room?<br>
<br>
<br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 21:22:48 +0000<br>
From: "Philip N. Jones" <<a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com">pjones@duffykekel.com</a>><br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CH3PR02MB101538DBC91838DBDA8E69B25BC1AA@CH3PR02MB10153.namprd02.prod.outlook.com">CH3PR02MB101538DBC91838DBDA8E69B25BC1AA@CH3PR02MB10153.namprd02.prod.outlook.com</a>><br>
<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
More than ten years ago, Jim Cartwright and I wrote an article on how to take steps during the planning process to avoid will contests after the client dies. The article was written under Oregon law, but I believe it is still valid and much of it would apply
to the situation described in this string. Here is the link to that article:<br>
<br>
Est_2011Oct.pdf (<a href="http://osbar.org">osbar.org</a>)<<a href="https://estateplanning.osbar.org/files/2015/05/Est_2011Oct.pdf">https://estateplanning.osbar.org/files/2015/05/Est_2011Oct.pdf</a>><br>
<br>
If the link doesn't work, just run a search on the Oregon State Bar Estate Planning and Administration Section Newsletter, October 2011 issue. I don't think you need to be a member of the OSB to access it.<br>
<br>
Phil Jones<br>
<br>
Philip N. Jones<br>
Duffy Kekel LLP<br>
900 S.W. Fifth Ave. Suite 2500<br>
Portland, OR 97204<br>
<a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com%3cmailto:pjones@duffykekel.com">pjones@duffykekel.com<mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com</a>><br>
(503) 226-1371 - office<br>
(503) 853-1482 - cell<br>
(503) 226-3574 - fax<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> On Behalf Of Paul Neumiller<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:07 PM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
<br>
Thanks to all who respond, on and off-line.<br>
<br>
<br>
[<a href="cid:image001.jpg@01D9D115.E5FAAF30">cid:image001.jpg@01D9D115.E5FAAF30</a>]<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com%3cmailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com%3cmailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>> On
Behalf Of Philip N. Jones<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:53 AM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com%3cmailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
<br>
That's a tough question.<br>
If you are not in the room, your client might say something odd.<br>
If you are in the room, APS might think you are a Svengali working on behalf of the evil wife.<br>
Perhaps you should talk to the APS person first and get a sense of how professional/reasonable the APS person is. If they seem OK, stay out.<br>
Very hard to say.<br>
Do you also represent the wife? I hope not.<br>
Phil Jones<br>
<br>
Philip N. Jones<br>
Duffy Kekel LLP<br>
900 S.W. Fifth Ave. Suite 2500<br>
Portland, OR 97204<br>
<a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com%3cmailto:pjones@duffykekel.com">pjones@duffykekel.com<mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com</a>><br>
(503) 226-1371 - office<br>
(503) 853-1482 - cell<br>
(503) 226-3574 - fax<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com%3cmailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com%3cmailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>> On
Behalf Of Paul Neumiller<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:37 AM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com%3cmailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>><br>
Subject: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
<br>
Listmates: Waaaay out of my wheel house. Recently remarried elderly client meets with me to change his estate planning. He wants to provide for his new wife (not everything, just a portion of his estate). Adult children from a previous marriage (and trust babies)
from CA have called the local Adult Protective Services and APS want to talk to my client (APS left a business card on my client's front door last night). Trust babies have an attorney in CA who argues to me that some documents are forged and that my client
is senile and that the new wife is taking advantage of my client. I personally feel the client is competent. My initial reaction is for the client to meet with APS and answer whatever questions APS has. APS will probably want to interview my client without
the new spouse in the room. Should I be in the room?<br>
<br>
<br>
[<a href="cid:image001.jpg@01D9D115.E5FAAF30">cid:image001.jpg@01D9D115.E5FAAF30</a>]<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 14:43:37 -0700<br>
From: <<a href="mailto:susan@pepetersonlaw.com">susan@pepetersonlaw.com</a>><br>
To: <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
Subject: [WSBAPT] Contingent beneficiary in TOD deed?<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:050b01d9d153$e2211550$a6633ff0$@pepetersonlaw.com">050b01d9d153$e2211550$a6633ff0$@pepetersonlaw.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
Hello listmates,<br>
<br>
Client owns 50% of the home she shares with her daughter, daughter and her<br>
husband own the other 50%. She would like to use a TOD deed to transfer her<br>
interest in the home to her daughter on her death, BUT she would also like<br>
to specify in the deed that, should her daughter predecease her, the<br>
property goes to daughter's husband. I know that the statute specifies that<br>
the gift to a named beneficiary who does not survive the transferor lapses,<br>
and will vest in another concurrent beneficiary, but I don't seen anything<br>
one way or the other about a contingent beneficiary. Has anyone done this?<br>
Does anyone see a problem with it?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Susan E. Spuller<br>
<br>
Attorney at Law<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Peterson Spuller, PLLC<br>
<br>
345 Knechtel Way NE, Suite 102<br>
<br>
Bainbridge Island, WA 98110<br>
<br>
206.855.9293<br>
<br>
Fax: 206.678.0105<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The information contained in this email is confidential and may also be<br>
attorney-client privileged. The information is intended only for the use of<br>
the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the<br>
intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it<br>
to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,<br>
dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly<br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 22:27:27 +0000<br>
From: Candace Wilkerson <<a href="mailto:cwilkerson@wongfleming.com">cwilkerson@wongfleming.com</a>><br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
Subject: [WSBAPT] Death of probate beneficiary in a TEDRA case<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:12a5f050696d40f2929c8b3e04341826@wongfleming.com">12a5f050696d40f2929c8b3e04341826@wongfleming.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
Hi Listmates,<br>
<br>
I am representing a Personal Representative client defending against a will contest. We currently have a trial set for mid-November in the will contest case.<br>
<br>
I just discovered that one of the estate beneficiaries (not involved in the will contest) has allegedly died, but I haven't confirmed this yet. The possibly deceased beneficiary would inherit whether the will contest succeeds or not, but the inheritance amount
will be different according to the result of the will contest. This beneficiary never filed a request for special notice in either the probate or TEDRA case.<br>
<br>
I assume our will contest case cannot continue as set at this point. Has anyone dealt with such a situation before?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Candace Wilkerson<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
*Candace is available to respond to emails and phone calls between the hours of 7:00 a.m. and 3:00 p.m. If you have an urgent matter outside that time period, please call our office at the number below.<br>
<br>
<br>
[<a href="cid:image001.png@01D9D137.08ED5BC0">cid:image001.png@01D9D137.08ED5BC0</a>]<br>
Top Ranked Law Firm for 2015 by Fortune Magazine and American Lawyer Media<br>
Candace Wilkerson | Senior Associate | Wong Fleming<br>
<br>
9840 Willows Road NE, Suite 200 | Redmond, WA 98052<br>
Phone: 425.869.4040 | Fax: 425.869.4050<br>
<a href="mailto:cwilkerson@wongfleming.com%3cmailto:cwilkerson@wongfleming.com">cwilkerson@wongfleming.com<mailto:cwilkerson@wongfleming.com</a>><br>
<br>
Please leave us a review on Google by clicking here<<a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=google+wong+fleming&rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS925US925&oq=google+wong+fleming&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i64.2183j1j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8">https://www.google.com/search?q=google+wong+fleming&rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS925US925&oq=google+wong+fleming&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i64.2183j1j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8</a>>.<br>
Please leave us a review on Yelp by clicking here.<<a href="https://www.yelp.com/biz/wong-fleming-redmond">https://www.yelp.com/biz/wong-fleming-redmond</a>><br>
[<a href="cid:image003.png@01D9D137.08ED5BC0">cid:image003.png@01D9D137.08ED5BC0</a>]<br>
[A logo for a company Description automatically generated with low confidence]<br>
Before proceeding, please note: If you are not a current client of Wong Fleming, please do not include any information in this e-mail that you or someone else considers to be of a confidential or secret nature. Wong Fleming has no duty to keep confidential
any of the information you provide. Neither the transmission nor receipt of your information is considered a request for legal advice, securing legal services or retaining a lawyer. An attorney-client relationship with Wong Fleming or any lawyer at Wong Fleming
is not established until and unless Wong Fleming agrees to such a relationship as reflected in a separate writing.<br>
<br>
IRS Circular 230 disclosure: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for
the purpose of (a) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (b) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.<br>
THIS ELECTRONIC MAIL TRANSMISSION AND ANY ATTACHMENTS MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL, OR PROPRIETARY INFORMATION INTENDED ONLY FOR THE PERSON(S) NAMED. IF THE READER OF THIS MESSAGE IS NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT OR THE AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE OF THE
INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT ANY DISTRIBUTION, COPYING, OR DISCLOSURE OF THIS COMMUNICATION IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED<br>
<br>
This communication is from a debt collector.<br>
This is an attempt to collect a debt and any information obtained will be used for that purpose.<br>
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CONSUMER OPT-OUT: Please note that you may opt out of receiving further email communications to this email address by replying to this email with the word "stop" in the subject line. While the firm will comply with your request to opt out of receiving further
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<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 22:31:46 +0000<br>
From: Candace Wilkerson <<a href="mailto:cwilkerson@wongfleming.com">cwilkerson@wongfleming.com</a>><br>
To: "<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Contingent beneficiary in TOD deed?<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:630266e8b7cd406c8af5366ce4c9c002@wongfleming.com">630266e8b7cd406c8af5366ce4c9c002@wongfleming.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
I have seen a contingent beneficiary on a TODD before, and the county in which it was recorded had no problems transferring to the contingent beneficiary after the primary beneficiary died.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Candace Wilkerson<br>
<br>
*Candace is available to respond to emails and phone calls between the hours of 7:00 a.m. and 3:00 p.m. If you have an urgent matter outside that time period, please call our office at the number below.<br>
<br>
<br>
[<a href="cid:image001.png@01D9D139.13097BF0">cid:image001.png@01D9D139.13097BF0</a>]<br>
Top Ranked Law Firm for 2015 by Fortune Magazine and American Lawyer Media<br>
Candace Wilkerson | Senior Associate | Wong Fleming<br>
<br>
9840 Willows Road NE, Suite 200 | Redmond, WA 98052<br>
Phone: 425.869.4040 | Fax: 425.869.4050<br>
<a href="mailto:cwilkerson@wongfleming.com%3cmailto:cwilkerson@wongfleming.com">cwilkerson@wongfleming.com<mailto:cwilkerson@wongfleming.com</a>><br>
<br>
Please leave us a review on Google by clicking here<<a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=google+wong+fleming&rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS925US925&oq=google+wong+fleming&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i64.2183j1j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8">https://www.google.com/search?q=google+wong+fleming&rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS925US925&oq=google+wong+fleming&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i64.2183j1j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8</a>>.<br>
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[<a href="cid:image003.png@01D9D139.13097BF0">cid:image003.png@01D9D139.13097BF0</a>]<br>
[A logo for a company Description automatically generated with low confidence]<br>
Before proceeding, please note: If you are not a current client of Wong Fleming, please do not include any information in this e-mail that you or someone else considers to be of a confidential or secret nature. Wong Fleming has no duty to keep confidential
any of the information you provide. Neither the transmission nor receipt of your information is considered a request for legal advice, securing legal services or retaining a lawyer. An attorney-client relationship with Wong Fleming or any lawyer at Wong Fleming
is not established until and unless Wong Fleming agrees to such a relationship as reflected in a separate writing.<br>
<br>
IRS Circular 230 disclosure: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for
the purpose of (a) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (b) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.<br>
THIS ELECTRONIC MAIL TRANSMISSION AND ANY ATTACHMENTS MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL, OR PROPRIETARY INFORMATION INTENDED ONLY FOR THE PERSON(S) NAMED. IF THE READER OF THIS MESSAGE IS NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT OR THE AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE OF THE
INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT ANY DISTRIBUTION, COPYING, OR DISCLOSURE OF THIS COMMUNICATION IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED<br>
<br>
This communication is from a debt collector.<br>
This is an attempt to collect a debt and any information obtained will be used for that purpose.<br>
<br>
CONSUMER OPT-OUT: Please note that you may opt out of receiving further email communications to this email address by replying to this email with the word "stop" in the subject line. While the firm will comply with your request to opt out of receiving further
electronic communication to this email address, please be advised that the firm may still be required by applicable law or court rule to provide you with certain notices or pleadings.<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> On Behalf Of
<a href="mailto:susan@pepetersonlaw.com">susan@pepetersonlaw.com</a><br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 5:44 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a><br>
Subject: [WSBAPT] Contingent beneficiary in TOD deed?<br>
<br>
Hello listmates,<br>
Client owns 50% of the home she shares with her daughter, daughter and her husband own the other 50%. She would like to use a TOD deed to transfer her interest in the home to her daughter on her death, BUT she would also like to specify in the deed that, should
her daughter predecease her, the property goes to daughter's husband. I know that the statute specifies that the gift to a named beneficiary who does not survive the transferor lapses, and will vest in another concurrent beneficiary, but I don't seen anything
one way or the other about a contingent beneficiary. Has anyone done this? Does anyone see a problem with it?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Susan E. Spuller<br>
Attorney at Law<br>
<br>
Peterson Spuller, PLLC<br>
345 Knechtel Way NE, Suite 102<br>
Bainbridge Island, WA 98110<br>
206.855.9293<br>
Fax: 206.678.0105<br>
<br>
<br>
The information contained in this email is confidential and may also be attorney-client privileged. The information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent
responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please immediately notify me by replying
to this email and delete the original. Thank you.<br>
<br>
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Message: 7<br>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 23:04:58 +0000<br>
From: Roger Hawkes <<a href="mailto:roger@skyvalleylawyers.com">roger@skyvalleylawyers.com</a>><br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Death of probate beneficiary in a TEDRA case<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CO6PR20MB366816DAEB3E78AF87E1A725D51AA@CO6PR20MB3668.namprd20.prod.outlook.com">CO6PR20MB366816DAEB3E78AF87E1A725D51AA@CO6PR20MB3668.namprd20.prod.outlook.com</a>><br>
<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
Give new bf notice of all and see what happens.<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> On Behalf Of Candace Wilkerson<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 3:27 PM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
Subject: [WSBAPT] Death of probate beneficiary in a TEDRA case<br>
<br>
Hi Listmates,<br>
<br>
I am representing a Personal Representative client defending against a will contest. We currently have a trial set for mid-November in the will contest case.<br>
<br>
I just discovered that one of the estate beneficiaries (not involved in the will contest) has allegedly died, but I haven't confirmed this yet. The possibly deceased beneficiary would inherit whether the will contest succeeds or not, but the inheritance amount
will be different according to the result of the will contest. This beneficiary never filed a request for special notice in either the probate or TEDRA case.<br>
<br>
I assume our will contest case cannot continue as set at this point. Has anyone dealt with such a situation before?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Candace Wilkerson<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
*Candace is available to respond to emails and phone calls between the hours of 7:00 a.m. and 3:00 p.m. If you have an urgent matter outside that time period, please call our office at the number below.<br>
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Top Ranked Law Firm for 2015 by Fortune Magazine and American Lawyer Media<br>
Candace Wilkerson | Senior Associate | Wong Fleming<br>
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Phone: 425.869.4040 | Fax: 425.869.4050<br>
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Message: 8<br>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 23:08:23 +0000<br>
From: Roger Hawkes <<a href="mailto:roger@skyvalleylawyers.com">roger@skyvalleylawyers.com</a>><br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CO6PR20MB3668BE73C00DC3F254EEB783D51AA@CO6PR20MB3668.namprd20.prod.outlook.com">CO6PR20MB3668BE73C00DC3F254EEB783D51AA@CO6PR20MB3668.namprd20.prod.outlook.com</a>><br>
<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
Video the meeting, too?<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> On Behalf Of Philip N. Jones<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:23 PM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
<br>
More than ten years ago, Jim Cartwright and I wrote an article on how to take steps during the planning process to avoid will contests after the client dies. The article was written under Oregon law, but I believe it is still valid and much of it would apply
to the situation described in this string. Here is the link to that article:<br>
<br>
Est_2011Oct.pdf (<a href="http://osbar.org">osbar.org</a>)<<a href="https://estateplanning.osbar.org/files/2015/05/Est_2011Oct.pdf">https://estateplanning.osbar.org/files/2015/05/Est_2011Oct.pdf</a>><br>
<br>
If the link doesn't work, just run a search on the Oregon State Bar Estate Planning and Administration Section Newsletter, October 2011 issue. I don't think you need to be a member of the OSB to access it.<br>
<br>
Phil Jones<br>
<br>
Philip N. Jones<br>
Duffy Kekel LLP<br>
900 S.W. Fifth Ave. Suite 2500<br>
Portland, OR 97204<br>
<a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com%3cmailto:pjones@duffykekel.com">pjones@duffykekel.com<mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com</a>><br>
(503) 226-1371 - office<br>
(503) 853-1482 - cell<br>
(503) 226-3574 - fax<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com%3cmailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com%3cmailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>> On
Behalf Of Paul Neumiller<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:07 PM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com%3cmailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
<br>
Thanks to all who respond, on and off-line.<br>
<br>
<br>
[<a href="cid:image001.jpg@01D9D125.0AD44960">cid:image001.jpg@01D9D125.0AD44960</a>]<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com%3cmailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com%3cmailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>> On
Behalf Of Philip N. Jones<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:53 AM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com%3cmailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
<br>
That's a tough question.<br>
If you are not in the room, your client might say something odd.<br>
If you are in the room, APS might think you are a Svengali working on behalf of the evil wife.<br>
Perhaps you should talk to the APS person first and get a sense of how professional/reasonable the APS person is. If they seem OK, stay out.<br>
Very hard to say.<br>
Do you also represent the wife? I hope not.<br>
Phil Jones<br>
<br>
Philip N. Jones<br>
Duffy Kekel LLP<br>
900 S.W. Fifth Ave. Suite 2500<br>
Portland, OR 97204<br>
<a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com%3cmailto:pjones@duffykekel.com">pjones@duffykekel.com<mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com</a>><br>
(503) 226-1371 - office<br>
(503) 853-1482 - cell<br>
(503) 226-3574 - fax<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com%3cmailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com%3cmailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>> On
Behalf Of Paul Neumiller<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:37 AM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com%3cmailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>><br>
Subject: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
<br>
Listmates: Waaaay out of my wheel house. Recently remarried elderly client meets with me to change his estate planning. He wants to provide for his new wife (not everything, just a portion of his estate). Adult children from a previous marriage (and trust babies)
from CA have called the local Adult Protective Services and APS want to talk to my client (APS left a business card on my client's front door last night). Trust babies have an attorney in CA who argues to me that some documents are forged and that my client
is senile and that the new wife is taking advantage of my client. I personally feel the client is competent. My initial reaction is for the client to meet with APS and answer whatever questions APS has. APS will probably want to interview my client without
the new spouse in the room. Should I be in the room?<br>
<br>
<br>
[<a href="cid:image001.jpg@01D9D125.0AD44960">cid:image001.jpg@01D9D125.0AD44960</a>]<br>
<br>
<br>
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Message: 9<br>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 23:12:13 +0000<br>
From: Roger Hawkes <roger@skyvalleylawyers.com><br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Probate discovery v. TEDRA discovery<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CO6PR20MB3668B0EEBA3764CE55FE8343D51AA@CO6PR20MB3668.namprd20.prod.outlook.com><br>
<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
My gut says most judges would apply the civil rules since there does not appear to be a separate probate section.<br>
<br>
From: wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Eric Nelsen<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 11:59 AM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Probate discovery v. TEDRA discovery<br>
<br>
I think RCW 11.96A.115(2)<<a href="https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=11.96A.115">https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=11.96A.115</a>> controls and no discovery is permitted in an ordinary probate administration, without
first getting leave of court. On the occasions when I've wanted to issue subpoenas to recalcitrant banks et al., I submit an Ex Parte motion to get authority first. I don't think anyone is entitled to notice of the motion so I generally have my Order the same
day.<br>
<br>
The alternative method I have used is under the general authority of RCW 11.48.020<<a href="https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=11.48.020">https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=11.48.020</a>>, the PR's right to possession
and control of all property of the decedent. That "property" includes the decedent's contractual rights with the bank, which includes decedent's contractual right to receive information concerning the account, periodic statements, etc. So, instead of subpoena
power, I have sometimes submitted an Ex Parte motion for an order commanding a specific bank to turn over particular documents and information by a deadline. Basically like a subpoena, but it's a direct order by the court instead.<br>
<br>
More generally: After many years of going back and forth I now think that none of the Civil Rules apply to a probate administration in any respect, unless they are specifically invoked or incorporated by a probate statute. Though I do use them as a template
for taking certain actions in probate-for example, I follow CR 70.1 and CR 71 when appearing or withdrawing for a party to a probate administration. Even if it's not technically applicable, it's sure to be applied by analogy by any judge analyzing whether
or not I have properly appeared or withdrawn from representing a client.<br>
<br>
CR 1 and CR 81 make the Civil Rules apply to "civil proceedings." I've never seen a definition of that, but I now think that it means only litigation matters. Probate administration is solely an administrative matter under the court's equitable jurisdiction,
and is not a "civil proceeding" except in the more general sense that it is a non-criminal proceeding.<br>
<br>
The WSBA Civil Procedure Deskbook (3d ed. 2014), Ch. 1.6, states:<br>
<br>
Although CR 1 applies by its terms to only civil actions, courts have suggested that the civil rules might be instructive in other contexts. In In re Estate of Toth, 138 Wn.2d 650, 655-67, 981 P.2d 439 (1999), for example, the court discussed, without deciding,
the possibility that CR 6(e) could apply to probate filing periods. But see Grasser v. Blakkolb, 12
<a href="http://Wn.App">
Wn.App</a>. 529, 530 P.2d 684 (1975), review denied, 85 Wn.2d 1005 (1975) (holding that the rejection of a claim in a probate matter is not a civil suit for purpose of CR 1, which restricts the application of Superior Court Civil Rules to suits of a civil nature).
Ultimately, the Toth court decided that even if the civil rules did apply to probate actions, rule 6(e) would not apply by its terms to the issue on appeal. Estate of Toth, 138 Wn.2d at 651.<br>
<br>
Sincerely,<br>
<br>
Eric<br>
<br>
Eric C. Nelsen<br>
Sayre Law Offices, PLLC<br>
1417 31st Ave South<br>
Seattle WA 98144-3909<br>
206-625-0092<br>
eric@sayrelawoffices.com<mailto:eric@sayrelawoffices.com><br>
<br>
From: wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Dalynne Singleton<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 11:06 AM<br>
To: 'WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv' <wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com>><br>
Subject: [WSBAPT] Probate discovery v. TEDRA discovery<br>
<br>
I have reviewed RCW 11 and 11.96A and I know and have done discovery in TEDRA as discovery is allowed which encompasses subpoena powers, issuing subpoena duces tecum, deposition, interrogatories, etc.<br>
BUT, in a probate cause - what discovery is allowed?<br>
<br>
In probate (not TEDRA), I have had occasion to issue a SDT to a bank and send to all counsel/heirs to object under CR 45. If no objection, then I issue the SDT and get bank records, usually to discover if JWROS, TOD accounts, access to bank records of decedent,
etc. I remember awhile back, someone posted authority that they believed there is no discovery allowed in probate w/o court order but can't find that old post.<br>
<br>
Anyone have an opinion on this issue and how you approach needing records in a probate cause?<br>
<br>
Dalynne Singleton<br>
Gourley Law Group<br>
Snohomish Escrow<br>
The Exchange Connection<br>
1002 10th Street / PO Box 1091<br>
Snohomish, WA 98291<br>
360.568.5065<br>
360.568.8092 fax<br>
dalynne@glgmail.com<mailto:dalynne@glgmail.com><br>
Website: <a href="http://www.glglawgroup.com">
www.glglawgroup.com</a><<a href="http://www.glglawgroup.com/">http://www.glglawgroup.com/</a>><br>
Attorney/client meetings will be handled by teleconference or virtually whenever possible. If you would like to set a telephone conference, zoom, or in person meeting, please call or email one my paralegals selina@glgmail.com<mailto:selina@glgmail.com> or elle@glgmail.com<mailto:elle@glgmail.com>.
My legal assistant can be reached at paige@glgmail.com<mailto:paige@glgmail.com>. Co-counsel Anna Thompson can be reached at anna@glgmail.com<mailto:anna@glgmail.com>.<br>
<br>
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Message: 10<br>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 23:24:03 +0000<br>
From: Paul Neumiller <pneumiller@hotmail.com><br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<MW3PR13MB3980D09DD87F373ECE920A46D21AA@MW3PR13MB3980.namprd13.prod.outlook.com><br>
<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
Got it. Thank you.<br>
<br>
<br>
[cid:image001.jpg@01D9D127.3AF16A90]<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Philip N. Jones<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:23 PM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
<br>
More than ten years ago, Jim Cartwright and I wrote an article on how to take steps during the planning process to avoid will contests after the client dies. The article was written under Oregon law, but I believe it is still valid and much of it would apply
to the situation described in this string. Here is the link to that article:<br>
<br>
Est_2011Oct.pdf (<a href="http://osbar.org">osbar.org</a>)<<a href="https://estateplanning.osbar.org/files/2015/05/Est_2011Oct.pdf">https://estateplanning.osbar.org/files/2015/05/Est_2011Oct.pdf</a>><br>
<br>
If the link doesn't work, just run a search on the Oregon State Bar Estate Planning and Administration Section Newsletter, October 2011 issue. I don't think you need to be a member of the OSB to access it.<br>
<br>
Phil Jones<br>
<br>
Philip N. Jones<br>
Duffy Kekel LLP<br>
900 S.W. Fifth Ave. Suite 2500<br>
Portland, OR 97204<br>
pjones@duffykekel.com<mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com><br>
(503) 226-1371 - office<br>
(503) 853-1482 - cell<br>
(503) 226-3574 - fax<br>
<br>
From: wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Paul Neumiller<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:07 PM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com>><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
<br>
Thanks to all who respond, on and off-line.<br>
<br>
<br>
[cid:image001.jpg@01D9D127.3AF16A90]<br>
<br>
<br>
From: wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Philip N. Jones<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:53 AM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com>><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
<br>
That's a tough question.<br>
If you are not in the room, your client might say something odd.<br>
If you are in the room, APS might think you are a Svengali working on behalf of the evil wife.<br>
Perhaps you should talk to the APS person first and get a sense of how professional/reasonable the APS person is. If they seem OK, stay out.<br>
Very hard to say.<br>
Do you also represent the wife? I hope not.<br>
Phil Jones<br>
<br>
Philip N. Jones<br>
Duffy Kekel LLP<br>
900 S.W. Fifth Ave. Suite 2500<br>
Portland, OR 97204<br>
pjones@duffykekel.com<mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com><br>
(503) 226-1371 - office<br>
(503) 853-1482 - cell<br>
(503) 226-3574 - fax<br>
<br>
From: wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Paul Neumiller<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:37 AM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com>><br>
Subject: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
<br>
Listmates: Waaaay out of my wheel house. Recently remarried elderly client meets with me to change his estate planning. He wants to provide for his new wife (not everything, just a portion of his estate). Adult children from a previous marriage (and trust babies)
from CA have called the local Adult Protective Services and APS want to talk to my client (APS left a business card on my client's front door last night). Trust babies have an attorney in CA who argues to me that some documents are forged and that my client
is senile and that the new wife is taking advantage of my client. I personally feel the client is competent. My initial reaction is for the client to meet with APS and answer whatever questions APS has. APS will probably want to interview my client without
the new spouse in the room. Should I be in the room?<br>
<br>
<br>
[cid:image001.jpg@01D9D127.3AF16A90]<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 11<br>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 23:24:33 +0000<br>
From: Jennifer L White <jen@appletreelaw.com><br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<MW4PR14MB46047598C7F5D5C08F33EC82C01AA@MW4PR14MB4604.namprd14.prod.outlook.com><br>
<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
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Excellent advice, Phil. For WA, just substitute Dean v Jordan for Oregon's 7 factors. Also, when getting a Dr letter confirming competency, I always schedule the Will signing for immediately after their Dr appointment.<br>
Paul, your original post didn't say, but did these folks have a Prenup? If so, does it impact the Will you are being asked to draft?<br>
Your testator might consider making some annual exclusion gifts to the adult kids contemporaneously with the new Will signing. Later, if they contest, you can point out they thought he was mentally competent enough to send them a check, which they took, but
now they are contesting the Will?<br>
<br>
Jennifer L. White, Esq.<br>
[cid:image002.jpg@01D9D126.3ACD8450]<br>
<br>
jen@appletreelaw.com<mailto:jen@appletreelaw.com><br>
2200 S 76th Ave<br>
Yakima, WA 98903<br>
509.225.9813<br>
<br>
From: wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Philip N. Jones<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:23 PM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
<br>
More than ten years ago, Jim Cartwright and I wrote an article on how to take steps during the planning process to avoid will contests after the client dies. The article was written under Oregon law, but I believe it is still valid and much of it would apply
to the situation described in this string. Here is the link to that article:<br>
<br>
Est_2011Oct.pdf (<a href="http://osbar.org">osbar.org</a>)<<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__estateplanning.osbar.org_files_2015_05_Est-5F2011Oct.pdf&d=DwMFAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=kDcM-fraYQNOZ1rCslLoMSSRXJQXmQVvRJbE6ymQGho&m=BazX1dY2W_zMEZh6ZILv8_YbIQ_Ag1TZmXlIohSS4zWqUxUUhCewIDwZtmIa63G3&s=vZUURwecOrd6sn7Tzqudse3wc8Sj6RD1b5JiQS79LIA&e=">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__estateplanning.osbar.org_files_2015_05_Est-5F2011Oct.pdf&d=DwMFAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=kDcM-fraYQNOZ1rCslLoMSSRXJQXmQVvRJbE6ymQGho&m=BazX1dY2W_zMEZh6ZILv8_YbIQ_Ag1TZmXlIohSS4zWqUxUUhCewIDwZtmIa63G3&s=vZUURwecOrd6sn7Tzqudse3wc8Sj6RD1b5JiQS79LIA&e=</a>><br>
<br>
If the link doesn't work, just run a search on the Oregon State Bar Estate Planning and Administration Section Newsletter, October 2011 issue. I don't think you need to be a member of the OSB to access it.<br>
<br>
Phil Jones<br>
<br>
Philip N. Jones<br>
Duffy Kekel LLP<br>
900 S.W. Fifth Ave. Suite 2500<br>
Portland, OR 97204<br>
pjones@duffykekel.com<mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com><br>
(503) 226-1371 - office<br>
(503) 853-1482 - cell<br>
(503) 226-3574 - fax<br>
<br>
From: wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Paul Neumiller<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:07 PM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com>><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
<br>
Thanks to all who respond, on and off-line.<br>
<br>
<br>
[cid:image003.jpg@01D9D126.3ACD8450]<br>
<br>
<br>
From: wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Philip N. Jones<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:53 AM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com>><br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
<br>
That's a tough question.<br>
If you are not in the room, your client might say something odd.<br>
If you are in the room, APS might think you are a Svengali working on behalf of the evil wife.<br>
Perhaps you should talk to the APS person first and get a sense of how professional/reasonable the APS person is. If they seem OK, stay out.<br>
Very hard to say.<br>
Do you also represent the wife? I hope not.<br>
Phil Jones<br>
<br>
Philip N. Jones<br>
Duffy Kekel LLP<br>
900 S.W. Fifth Ave. Suite 2500<br>
Portland, OR 97204<br>
pjones@duffykekel.com<mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com><br>
(503) 226-1371 - office<br>
(503) 853-1482 - cell<br>
(503) 226-3574 - fax<br>
<br>
From: wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Paul Neumiller<br>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:37 AM<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com>><br>
Subject: [WSBAPT] Eminent Adult Protective Services Visit<br>
<br>
Listmates: Waaaay out of my wheel house. Recently remarried elderly client meets with me to change his estate planning. He wants to provide for his new wife (not everything, just a portion of his estate). Adult children from a previous marriage (and trust babies)
from CA have called the local Adult Protective Services and APS want to talk to my client (APS left a business card on my client's front door last night). Trust babies have an attorney in CA who argues to me that some documents are forged and that my client
is senile and that the new wife is taking advantage of my client. I personally feel the client is competent. My initial reaction is for the client to meet with APS and answer whatever questions APS has. APS will probably want to interview my client without
the new spouse in the room. Should I be in the room?<br>
<br>
<br>
[cid:image003.jpg@01D9D126.3ACD8450]<br>
<br>
<br>
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