<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond,serif;font-size:large">Can somebody find out if we can all obtain some CLE credits for reading this thread, and let me know? </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond,serif;font-size:large">:) </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond,serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:garamond,serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><b><span style="color:black;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Sarah O’Farrell McCarthy</font></span></b></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font color="#000000" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><b>(Pronouns: she / her)<br></b></font><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Attorney | <font color="#000000">Kelly, Arndt & Walker, <font color="#000000">Attorneys at Law, PLLP</font></font><font color="#000000"></font></font><font color="#000000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#000000"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"><br></span><span style="color:black"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="color:black"><font color="#000000">P.O. Box 290 | </font></span></font></span></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">6443 Harding Avenue |</span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Clinton, WA 98236</span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font color="#000000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#000000"><span style="color:black"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="color:black"><font color="#000000"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></font></span></font></span><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">(Located on Whidbey Island, Island County, Washington)<br></font><span style="color:black"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Phone: (360) 341-1515 | Fax: (360) 341-3272</font><br><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a><font color="#222222" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">sarah@kawlawyers.com</font></a> <font color="#000000">| <span style="color:black"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"><font color="#000000"><a href="http://www.kawlawyers.com" target="_blank">www.kawlawyers.com</a></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-size:7.5pt"><br></span></font></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-size:7.5pt">This electronic message transmission contains information from the law firm of Kelly, Arndt & Walker, PLLP which may be confidential or privileged. This information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named above, If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any further review, disclosure, printing, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this transmission is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message transmission in error, please notify us immediately by reply e-mail and delete the original message. Thank you</span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-size:8pt">. </span></font></p><font color="#000000" size="3"></font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><span style="color:black;font-size:8pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> </font></span></p><font color="#000000" size="3"></font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><span style="color:rgb(68,84,106);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:7.5pt"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">We do not accept service of any kind by e-mail unless expressly authorized in writing by the attorney of record. This e-mail is NOT a contract and is not binding upon the author pursuant to CR 2A. This e-mail is, at most, a negotiation under ER 408.<br></font></span></p></font></font></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 10:42 AM Diane J. Kiepe <<a href="mailto:DJKiepe@depdslaw.com">DJKiepe@depdslaw.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg-564472791998888172">
<div lang="EN-US" style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div class="m_-564472791998888172WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Technically, to take it a step further there is an estate even if all assets pass by non-probate designation – right – if there are bills to be paid, certain non probate
assets can be claimed to satisfy those debts. When I present, I always discuss taxable estate vs. probate estate vs. estate generally – it is often a surprise to folks. By way of personal example, I did loose a family member prematurely in the natural order
of things, all he had, literally was life insurance and personal property – his car and home were both secured loans and collected by the lender’s. His estate was his personal property which was primarily distributed to his minor daughter and my folks just
amongst the family, no probate was opened by the family because no true probate estate, creditors called and we told them they were welcome to open probate but there were no assets to collect from, there was no taxable estate, but yes he had an estate generally.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I too, as I believe Tim is saying, have run checks through our firm account. Ultimately, I believe it’s a matter of being able to trace and show proper distribution of
money received. What I won’t do is run receipts of funds for a foreign person PR for the estate – I am just not clear on withholding rules if I were to do that and it’s too daunting. Would be curious if anyone else has.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Script MT Bold"">Diane J. Kiepe<u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Script MT Bold""><u></u> <u></u></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Diane J. Kiepe<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Douglas Eden<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">717 W. Sprague Ave.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Suite 1500<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Spokane, WA 99201<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:djkiepe@depdslaw.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">djkiepe@depdslaw.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">509-455-5300<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Timothy Williams<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 23, 2023 8:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Living Trust issue<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">This has been an interesting thread, and I appreciate the conversation greatly. I do disagree with Bruce (and others), on a number of points. The legislature in its wisdom has allowed for the non probate transfer of assets. I designate
a personal representative in my will. When I die, I have an estate that must be distributed. Even though it vests immediately, there is still a role for the PR, and still an estate for any item still in my name. Your contention there is no “estate” is in my
opinion incorrect; so long as there is <u>title</u> in a decedent’s name, there must be an estate, and the need for a pr, at least in some cases, to effect the transfer to the rightful, “vested” owner. Probate or not. Thus in a non probated estate there is
still a pr, and often a need for the pr. This I believe is your second error. While a court gives authority to a pr in a probated estate, when a probate is unnecessary, there is still a pr if there is a valid will. So
<span style="font-size:10pt">I agree with the statement that an unprobated Will "may be accorded whatever legal effect some third party wishes to accord it." This is at least implied by the statute, and likely true at common law.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">My IOLTA account is designed to hold assets that do not belong to me. I control it, but they are not my funds. There is no requirement or regulation that the funds ever be designated or distributed to me. They belong to someone else. I
am a fiduciary, and I am responsible for them, and I take that responsibility very seriously.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have “endorsed many many checks over the years with my IOLTA stamp, most made out to either me or my IOLTA account, but many more made out to a variety of third parties, including estates (both probated and non probated), trusts, and
deceased persons. I have done so for both small and for significant amounts. The bank cashes them without question. The underlying maker has never questioned the distribution, including on occasion the United States Treasury. I distribute it to its rightful
owners pursuant to my fiduciary duty. We have as attorneys been granted that authority; why not use it to the benefit of our clients.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Timothy E. Williams<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Attorney at Law<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">5302 Pacific Ave<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Tacoma, WA 98408<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">(253) 591-7088<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">(253) 591-7086 fax<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href="mailto:tim@tewilliamslaw.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue">tim@tewilliamslaw.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href="http://www.tewilliamslaw.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue">www.tewilliamslaw.com</span></a>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail (including attachments) is covered by the Electronic Communications Act, 18 U.S.C. 2210-2521, is confidential and may be legally privileged. This e-mail contains
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Thank you.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Bruce Moen <<a href="mailto:brm@moenlaw.com" target="_blank">brm@moenlaw.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 22, 2023 12:32 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Living Trust issue<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Since I (inadvertently) started this long thread, then I guess that I should comment.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think this discussion is all attributable to different definitions and different usages.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Historically, there were no fixed meanings to any of these words in the evolution of English law.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Fast forward to today, still different usages to the same words.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">"Estate" to me (no research here) means only an interest in property. The owner has an estate in Blackacre while living and then the heirs and devisees upon the owner's death. No estate was created, it just changed hands.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I disagree that an estate comes into being at death "(or are “created” or “take on meaning,” pick your phrase)."
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I agree that the concept of an estate exists in US bankruptcy law, general insolvency law, decedents’ estates, etc. But no common meaning. The federal tax code defines "estate" to include non-probate assets in the taxable "estate" for
example.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The purpose of a probate (or intestate administration) is to answer the question: From the deceased owner into whose hands? Instant vesting rule applies, no vacuum in title allowed. The court appoints a PR who magically has the power and
authority to take control of the "estate" that was owned by the decedent notwithstanding the instant vesting rule.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Without the appointment of a PR, then no-one is in charge. No-one to endorse checks, to convey title, etc.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I disagree that an unprobated Will "may be accorded whatever legal effect some third party wishes to accord it." I believe that only the court can accord legal effect.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I do agree that your banking suggestion would work as a practical matter because the bank may well cash the check and you take the risk when you disburse the cash from your IOLTA account to the sole heir. But then you and your client
have usurped the court's function of determining heirship. What if other heirs exist unbeknownst to you and your client? You take the risk, granted, but I personally would hesitate to take that risk.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Why not take a risk? Probably because of the nature of my practice. It is 99% estate and trust administration, but it is 90% contested, litigated or just plain messy. The heirs or beneficiaries are at odds and no cooperation. So perhaps
I'm more conservative. I'm often the appointed Successor PR and often co-counsel representing a PR. When asked why not take a risk, I point to the above concepts that legitimacy of the Will and legitimacy of the appointment of the PR comes only from the court.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I hope that all find this thread interesting and taken in good spirits.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> -Bruce<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Joshua McKarcher<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 22, 2023 8:08 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Living Trust issue<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Given this exchange yesterday, and because further delay is unhelpful at this point, below is my promised reasoning for Bruce and Phil, or anyone else who cares, if they
have not blacklisted me as spam yet . . .<span class="m_-564472791998888172apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">😉</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">. . .</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I start with two questions that indicate what my elaboration below aims at.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Phil, what is your reasoning for why no “estate” exists anywhere until a PR is appointed (or a small estate affidavit is signed) somewhere? I see no evidence for that position.
(My reasoning is below, as I promised earlier this week.) (Another way of asking this after your reply this morning: Are you sure that Terry’s definition, from section 2203 about the estate tax, is a definition limited to one kind of federal tax and not just
a common sense definition reflecting Western law generally, which might be persuasive to a court or other authority analyzing this question?)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And, second, how is it “fraudulent” if a bank deposits an unendorsed check (or maybe one endorsed by “executor as defined under IRS Code 2203,” which is my way of jesting
after your reply to Terry, not literal) with full truthful disclosure by a lawyer that it is property of a decedent’s estate, the proper fiduciary for which is our client? (Again, my reasoning is below.) </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The rest of this tome I drafted as I had time this week . . . </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I asserted long ago in this thread that, in effect, “An ‘estate’ exists, even if there is no PR appointed – so, how about using your IOLTA to deposit a check payable to
Estate of Decedent, if the dots connect from that decedent’s estate to the trust regarding which you represent the trustee.”
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Why? Because I have until this thread thought it completely uncontroversial that:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">-- a decedent’s “estate” at the moment of death consists of her real and personal property that is subject to probate in one or more jurisdictions
<span class="m_-564472791998888172grame">worldwide;</span> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">-- her “trust estate” is her real and personal property subject to disposition by her trust agreement, if one exists; and
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">-- her “<span class="m_-564472791998888172spelle">nonprobate</span>” estate or assets, at the moment of death, are the assets (that were part of her lifetime estate) that “transform” from being
part of her lifetime estate to being part of <u>neither</u> estate previously described, but become some other
<span class="m_-564472791998888172grame">person’s</span> by operation of applicable law and her valid agreements with banks, life insurers, IRA custodians, etc. (Or, if they do eventually, upon being claimed, become part of either of the two estates previously described, it is
<u>later</u> and <u>by virtue of</u> applicable law and/or her valid agreements.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And, just to get it out of the way up front, I have considered it uncontroversial that an
<span class="m_-564472791998888172spelle">unprobated</span> pour-over will – which can be filed for $20 post-mortem with our superior courts, and which can be admitted in evidence in some state court proceedings – is still a “will” (as defined in the RCW) and may be accorded whatever
legal effect some third party wishes to accord it in a particular circumstance, even if not formally proved/probated or formally used to obtain Letters Testamentary.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">So, I have always considered that, at the moment of death, the three categories above come into being (or are “created” or “take on meaning,” pick your phrase) as a matter
of law, even if each is a legal fiction useful for applying laws and rules to the “fictional thing” (like unincorporated associations or accidental general partnerships that exist and can be “acted upon,” whether anyone realizes it exists or not). This concept
of an “estate” applies in US bankruptcy law, general insolvency law, the law of decedents’ estates, and other similar regimes for “administering assets of a person or entity.”</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The “probate estate” seems to me to be subject to subdivision, such as if the assets comprising it are subject to administration in 2+ states’ courts. A “[<span class="m_-564472791998888172spelle">StateName</span>]
probate estate” takes on legal meaning – and the court-appointed PR is entitled to take “possession” of the probate estate
<u>subject to that state’s laws</u> – if a state court appoints an administrator or PR of the portion of the “probate estate” that is
<u>subject to that state’s laws</u>. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">But that single state court proceeding does not necessarily implicate or affect the remainder of the worldwide “estate” that is
<u>not</u> part of the “[<span class="m_-564472791998888172spelle">StateName</span>] probate estate” subject to the state court proceeding.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_-564472791998888172grame"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Or,</span></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> a state’s laws may allow that a “small estate affidavit” may
<u>provide protection to</u> or <u>require</u> the holder of an asset who relies on the statements in the affidavit to hand over an asset to the affiant.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">That can be wonderful and helpful. But note that the small estate affidavit statute is
<u>permissive</u>, not <u>mandatory</u>. It is aimed at forcing third parties to turn over property they refuse to; and giving protection to third parties who do so. It is not mandatory upon those third parties; they can hand over property at their own risk
if they wish to.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And, regardless, sometimes
<span class="m_-564472791998888172spelle">the</span> small estate affidavit would be <u>untruthful to sign</u>.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Imagine a probate proceeding in
<span class="m_-564472791998888172spelle">StateXYZ</span> court for real property titled individually there, but a $1,500 bank deposit that is later discovered in the decedent’s home state of Washington, where everything else was successfully funded to the RLT, negating the need
for probate in Washington of the pour-over will.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Do we really want the Washington trustee,
<span class="m_-564472791998888172grame">in order to</span> collect the $1,500 deposit to sign a small estate affidavit when the statute requires the affiant – our client! – to state that administration is not pending in any jurisdiction, when one is in
<span class="m_-564472791998888172spelle">StateXYZ</span>? <i>See</i> RCW 11.62.010(2) (“shall state”) and sub (e) (no petition pending or granted anywhere). I assume not.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">If a third party hands over property (even, say, this bank holding $1,500) to a person named as nominated PR in a valid “will” presented to them, because the third party
satisfies itself that that same person is the current trustee of the trust to which the asset is ultimately owed under the pour-over will, then I know of no law that makes it illegal for that third party to hand over that asset to that third party
<u>voluntarily</u>. They simply are <u>liable</u> for doing so because they don’t have a small estate affidavit or Letters Testamentary in-hand.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And I have had credit unions and banks do just that. Because I connect dots and practically depose my own clients in these matters before I “do” these things.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Perhaps that shocks some on this chain, but it’s absolutely happened with Big Bad Banks. And to the harm of absolutely nobody, and upon the misrepresentations or fraud of
nobody. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(Indeed, I’ve even had that occur with two California financial institutions, one of which provided its own affidavit that did NOT require untruthful statements and was
very well drafted. It was shockingly reasonable. “Yay banks!” That’s a little joke for anyone still reading.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">A properly executed, self-proved pour-over will that is
<span class="m_-564472791998888172spelle">unprobated</span>, is a perfectly useful document to third parties that satisfy themselves that the lawyer and “nominated PR who is acting trustee” working with them are legit. A document that is well written, logical, looks like the trust
document, is dated the same date maybe, etc. etc., can pass a sniff test that other wills and associated trusts manifestly do not.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And so I persist: I still assert that a check payable to “Estate of Decedent” or “Decedent” may be legitimately negotiated (and maybe even endorsed “executor” per Terry;
or just <u>not endorsed at all</u>, as I have noted) by a person <u>accepting the risk</u> of acting with respect to estate property because they are acting according to their fiduciary duty to the beneficiaries and are mindful of their duty to
<u>apply</u> the funds properly. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And I’m having a hard time understanding where the problem “is” or at least “should be” if:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">-- a well-regarded, 100+-year-old bank accepts for deposit to my IOLTA account an
<u>unendorsed</u> check (totally unexceptional in my experience, but my banker’s known me since childhood; and Heather’s obviously permitted it for years, so I’m not the only one who finds this unexceptional based on actual experience<span class="m_-564472791998888172grame">);</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">--
<span class="m_-564472791998888172spelle">the</span> money is attributed in my IOLTA records to a “matter” on which my firm represents a
<span class="m_-564472791998888172grame">client;</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">-- I am willing to take the risk that it is proper to receive it, credit it, and distribute it accordingly in connection with the
<span class="m_-564472791998888172grame">representation;</span> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">-- the check goes fully
<u>collected</u> (not just <u>available</u>, a distinction my staff and lawyers monitor closely); and
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">-- the funds are applied properly (i.e., distributed to the parties to whom entitled).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">If the client or the lawyer are acting outside the authority of the relevant documents, that is on them, and they should and will be held responsible.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">But that is a separate matter and analysis from whether funds payable to “Estate of Decedent” or “Decedent” can be deposited and held in the IOLTA account of the lawyer
hired by the one person on the planet (who is nominated PR under the will and sole trustee of the RLT to which the will pours over) to administer the (probate and trust) estates of Decedent.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">If I’m dumb enough to deposit that check
<u>without confirming all the dots are connected to my client</u>, then the rules will hold me accountable, as they should.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">For example, Phil had used earlier in this thread the example of the three children of a decedent who died
<u>intestate</u>. (Jenna, our original poster, did not have an intestate decedent, but a trustee who I “think” or “assume” was also the nominated PR under an
<span class="m_-564472791998888172spelle">unprobated</span> pour-over will. But Phil’s example is apt, so let’s consider it.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">In Phil’s example, I would no more deposit a check payable to Estate of Decedent or Decedent for 1 of the 3 kids
<u>without</u> 1 of them having retained me and having obtained Letters of Administration or having signed a small estate affidavit (and having full support of the two other siblings, having given 10-day notice, etc.).
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(Perhaps a mild irony: I am the guy who tells PR/trustee clients that sending one of the beneficiaries to sign a vehicle inheritance affidavit is convenient but improper,
because – like the “no pending probate” problem noted above for Washington small estate affidavits – most of the time the affiant collecting the vehicle would be lying to sign the blasted thing, because one or more statements is untrue. I tell them I do not
advise people to lie or sign such things, and I encourage them to do it the right way. But I also turn around and deposit their unendorsed $75 insurance refund checks in my IOLTA if their bank won’t take it! But, back to Phil’s example . . . )</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I would no
<span class="m_-564472791998888172grame">more</span> tell 1 of the 3 to move all the decedent’s tangible personal property to a secret storage shed and lock it up. Both would be improper, even under my (let’s say, “permissive”) standards.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">But I submit that if one of the 3 kids presumed to act upon the decedent's assets by "doing things" pre-appointment, innocently or otherwise, they would reasonably be said
to have presumed to act at their own risk upon the property of the decedent's (generic, worldwide, lowercase “e”) “estate.”</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">So, with deep respect for both Phil and Bruce, nothing I’ve seen (yet) persuades me that a decedent’s “estate” does not exist without the appointment of a PR or the signing
of a small estate affidavit. Even if those things happen 99% of the time, so be it; but the “1% cases” are not invalid just because they’re rare or seem slightly “riskier.”</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And, of course, often it ends up not mattering that these people described above “act upon” estate assets without formal court appointment . . . because it ends up being
perfectly agreeable to all parties interested in the decedent’s estate (whether testate or intestate). The actor’s pre-appointment acts are in effect “ratified” after the actor-PR’s appointment.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_-564472791998888172grame"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Or,</span></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> they are “ratified” by the consent (usually in the form of receipts,
releases, etc.) following disclosure to all beneficiaries of the probate or trust estate’s inventory, receipts (including my renegade IOLTA deposits
</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">😉</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">), expenses, tax filings, ending balances, and proposed distributions.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Lastly, but not
<span class="m_-564472791998888172grame">really as</span> evidence but just theory, I would go as far as to say it is one totally expected and normal use of an IOLTA account in such
<u>properly vetted</u> situations. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The detailed rules governing IOLTA accounts exist to make otherwise unusual transactions work for the better of our legal (and economic and other) systems. Consider the
oddity of a litigant’s settlement funds being received, held, and distributed by the adverse party’s perhaps-despised lawyer. I bet that feels unusual to the litigant. Fine. These are unusual situations we lawyers are called upon and authorized to handle –
with careful documentation and laser focus on the <u>receipt</u> and <u>application</u> of the funds.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The IOLTA rules exist to ensure that extensive documentation -- and heightened respect for things like "collected" vs. "available" funds -- are given careful heed by those
-- we lawyers -- who "know better" and had better know what they are doing, but who can lawfully facilitate proper outcomes for clients and parties in “unusual” situations
<u>in which non-lawyers cannot</u>. Please note that here the word “unusual” refers to it being unusual to non-lawyers. These things are perfectly “usual” to us, but that is largely the point: we are trained, vetted, licensed, and regulated in ways that ensure
we will be disciplined if we do in <u>wrongful</u> ways these things that are “unusual to non-lawyers,” like holding third parties’ funds in our IOLTA accounts. Or in a way that does not heed the proper
<u>receipt</u> and <u>application</u> of the funds, which are what IOLTA rules focus upon.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">All my very best, Josh</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Joshua D. McKarcher<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">McKarcher Law PLLC<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">537 6th Street<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Clarkston, WA 99403<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(509) 758-3345<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(509) 758-3314 (fax)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><a href="mailto:josh@mckarcherlaw.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(0,134,240)">josh@mckarcherlaw.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><a href="http://www.mckarcherlaw.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(0,134,240)">www.mckarcherlaw.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Joshua McKarcher<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 21, <span class="m_-564472791998888172grame">2023</span> 10:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Living Trust issue<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">1. My bank has done number 1 for years and has operated in the region for decades successfully and has offered IOLTA accounts to clients all along. I don’t know what else
to tell you here, except it sounds like Heather’s bank did this for years as well until recently.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">2. I have never advised a client to endorse a check as PR or anything else.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">3. I don’t accept or deposit checks falsely endorsed. I do agree to deposit checks to my IOLTA for clients related to matters on which I advise them.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">If I get audited by WSBA as a result of this thread, I will let you know how it goes.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Best, Josh
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Philip N. Jones<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 21, 2023 9:41 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Living Trust issue<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Three questions:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Will a bank accept an unendorsed check being deposited to an IOLTA account? That would greatly surprise me.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Can an attorney ethically advise a client to endorse a check as PR when the client has not been appointed PR? That would greatly surprise me.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Can an attorney accept and deposit such a check? That would greatly surprise me.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Phil Jones<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div id="m_-564472791998888172ms-outlook-mobile-signature">
<div>
<p> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p>Get <a href="https://aka.ms/o0ukef" target="_blank">Outlook for iOS</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center">
<hr size="1" width="98%" align="center">
</div>
<div id="m_-564472791998888172divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From:</span></b><span style="color:black">
</span><a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a><span style="color:black"> <</span><a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a><span style="color:black">> on behalf of
Joshua McKarcher <</span><a href="mailto:josh@mckarcherlaw.com" target="_blank">josh@mckarcherlaw.com</a><span style="color:black">><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 21, 2023 6:24:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <</span><a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a><span style="color:black">><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Living Trust issue</span> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I owe an update on this thread (which I have been working on), but, given this quick exchange today and the word “fruadulent,” I feel compelled to respond to say I cannot
see how it is <u>fraudulent</u> NOT to endorse a check and for the depositor’s bank simply to
<u>accept</u> that check for deposit to their lawyer-client’s IOLTA account – so long as the bank and its client (i.e., my firm, if I’m the lawyer depositing to my IOLTA) are (as the bank and I
<b><u>must</u></b>) <b><u>accept all liability</u></b> resulting from the wrongful
<u>receipt</u> or <u>application</u> of the funds. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">But every IOLTA deposit is theoretically subject to dispute. And we have very clear rules about how to handle that if a dispute arises.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And IOLTA funds are often (entirely?), as the rules contemplate, third-party property. This is an issue, in my view, of the lawyer’s judgment, knowledge of his client and
the matter, the bank’s comfort and trust of their lawyer-client, the kind and size of check, and other relevant factors that are mostly “risk analysis” factors we all deal with every day.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">But if all heirs-at-law are beneficiaries of the trust to which the unprobated will pours over, and the one serving as trustee and nominated PR under the will is also my
client (on a “matter”) and has a check payable to <b>Estate of Decedent</b> or even simply
<b>Decedent</b> – but does not otherwise have need to probate the pour-over will – then I have found nothing in IOLTA rules or ethical rules (at least so far this week) that makes it wrong in any way for the lawyer to deposit the check to his or her IOLTA account
(<b><u>if</u></b> the bank agrees to accept it, which the bank is 100% <b><u>not</u></b> obligated to do;
<i>see, e.g.</i>, Heather’s bank’s change of heart). </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">It is then the lawyer’s (and his client’s) obligation to account for the receipt of those funds; and then to
<u>apply</u> those funds properly. In my example that would be by ensuring the funds end up with the beneficiaries entitled to the trust’s assets by virtue of the unprobated (but perhaps
<u>filed</u>) will that nominates my client as PR and pours over to the trust of which that PR is also trustee.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(The point there: I am not depositing funds subject to administration by someone else who is not my client on a “matter.” Not at all.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I can expand more later re my position that Western law supports the idea that a decedent’s gross, worldwide, generic, lowercase “e”
<u>estate</u> consists of all property worldwide that is individually titled and subject to various jurisdictions’ individual probate or administration statutes.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">That (generic, worldwide, lowercase “e”) “estate” property is all the decedent’s property (1)
<u>not</u> titled to a trust and (2) <u>not</u> subject to nonprobate transfer under contract and other applicable law (such as IRAs, TODs/PODs, life insurance with beneficiary designations).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Assets that comprise that generic, worldwide “estate” could be subject to 15 different jurisdictions’ probate laws. Imagine real property parcels in 15 different states
(and poor planning, ha ha!). That could result in 15 state probate court proceedings technically “titled”
<i>In re Estate of Decedent</i>, but that simply creates 15 separate “sub-estates,” each consisting of the property subject to each separate state’s probate laws.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">But what if the HOME state has no real property and NOTHING requiring Letters Testamentary for administration? Is there really no estate in the home state? Until this exchange,
I never would have dreamed our profession would argue, “Yes, there is no estate in that home state until a PR is appointed there or a small estate affidavit is signed and filed there.”</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I respectfully suggest that Western law generally (and Washington law specifically) will not likely bear out that there is simply “no estate” anywhere until a court-appointed
PR is appointed somewhere. There is indeed no “Estate of Decedent under Case No. XYZ123 in Washington Superior Court for County ABC,” but there is an “estate” – property that belongs to someone deceased that needs to be received and applied properly and efficiently
and sensibly.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Of course the will
<u>could</u> be probated, or a small estate affidavit <u>could</u> be presented, but if a payor of $35 in insurance premium refunds (payable to
<b>Estate of Decedent</b>) or $75 of federal income tax refund money (payable to <b>
Decedent</b>) does not WANT the protection/indemnity provided to them by acceptance and retention of the small estate affidavit, then I just do not believe lawyers are committing fraud by depositing either check to their IOLTA accounts with
<u>no endorsement</u> by anyone.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And the following is NOT a “justification” in any way, so proving this wrong does not prove my assertions wrong, but test the assertion against what IOLTA rules are about:
a lawyer could use his IOLTA account all day long to deposit checks properly endorsed by his/her client respecting a matter on which the lawyer advises the client -- and NOT APPLY THE FUNDS correctly. Or perhaps he knows/suspects the client-endorser RECEIVED
the funds improperly. I believe the law would support the position that it is the
<u>receipt</u> and <u>application</u> of client trust/IOLTA funds, not the <u>endorsement of checks</u>, that the law regulates or intends to regulate.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And, please do not forget:
<u>nothing</u> I’m advocating relieves anyone involved of <u>liability</u> and <u>
accountability</u> – or even <u>documentation</u> obligation – for the <u>receipt</u> and
<u>application</u> of those funds. I maintain 100% obligation and accountability for every little check like this. And I have 0% problem with that, because of how I screen and choose my clients.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">All my very best regards, and have a great weekend everyone! Best, Josh</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Joshua D. McKarcher</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">McKarcher Law PLLC</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">537 6th Street</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Clarkston, WA 99403</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(509) 758-3345</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(509) 758-3314 (fax)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><a href="mailto:josh@mckarcherlaw.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,134,240)">josh@mckarcherlaw.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><a href="http://www.mckarcherlaw.com/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(0,134,240)">www.mckarcherlaw.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Philip N. Jones<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 21, 2023 12:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Living Trust issue<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I don’t see any ethical issues, except one:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Who is going to endorse the check, and how are they going to endorse it? We can’t ethically advise our client to sign as PR when the client is not a PR.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Some attorneys say to their clients, “I can’t ethically advise you to do X. Wink. Wink.” Knowing full well that the attorney just gave the client an idea of what to
do. And the attorney can then use “plausible deniability” to claim that he/she did not advise the client to do X.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">But in this case, the attorney will be placing the funds in his/her IOLTA account. Difficult to plausibly deny that the attorney participated in an action that might be
viewed as fraudulent.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Phil Jones</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Philip N. Jones</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Duffy Kekel LLP</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">900 S.W. Fifth Ave. Suite 2500</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Portland, OR 97204</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">pjones@duffykekel.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 226-1371 – office</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 853-1482 – cell</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 226-3574 - fax</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Timothy Lehr<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 21, 2023 12:03 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Living Trust issue<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal">Wondering if there would be any ethical violations/issues with depositing the check in an attorney trust account and re-issuing to the trust? This was just off the top of my head and I have not looked into any issues that might be involved,
so don’t quote me on the above as a proper or ethical solution…<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><b>Timothy C. Lehr</b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal">Attorney & Partner<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><img border="0" width="191" height="69" style="width: 1.9895in; height: 0.7187in;" id="m_-564472791998888172x_Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:187b4d163e44ce8e91"><span style="font-size:10pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span lang="ES-MX"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span lang="ES-MX">p: 360.855.0131<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span lang="ES-MX">e: </span><span style="font-size:10pt"><a href="mailto:timothy@stileslaw.com" target="_blank"><span lang="ES-MX">timothy@stileslaw.com</span></a></span><span lang="ES-MX"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span lang="ES-MX">w: </span><span style="font-size:10pt"><a href="http://www.stileslaw.com/" target="_blank"><span lang="ES-MX">www.stileslaw.com</span></a></span><span lang="ES-MX"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span lang="ES-MX"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><b>NOTICE</b>: The information contained in this email is proprietary and/or confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this communication, you are hereby notified to : (i) delete the email and all copies;
(ii) not disclose, distribute or use the email in any manner; (iii) notify the sender immediately. Thank you.
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><b>From:</b> Philip N. Jones <<a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com" target="_blank">pjones@duffykekel.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Living Trust issue<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">That’s because I grew up in Lake Forest Park and drank the water (literally, out of a well).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Phil Jones</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Philip N. Jones</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Duffy Kekel LLP</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">900 S.W. Fifth Ave. Suite 2500</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Portland, OR 97204</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">pjones@duffykekel.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 226-1371 – office</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 853-1482 – cell</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 226-3574 - fax</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Roger Hawkes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:25 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Living Trust issue<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal">Phil; you clearly have good genes on one side at least.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Philip N. Jones<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 17, 2023 5:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Living Trust issue<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">This is a problem we all run into constantly.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I doubt a bank will open an estate account without Letters Testamentary.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Does the client happen to have an account that is joint with Mom? Perhaps you could deposit the check to that account, but some banks will not let you do that if they
know that Mom has died (and the check, after all, is made out to her estate). Some people suggest using a night deposit slot so that there won’t be a teller to ask questions, but I am told that the banks scrutinize such deposits just like any other.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Is client on good terms with a bank teller who might look the other way and deposit the check to an account in the name of the trust? Or in the name of Client/Child?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">This check might be particularly difficult to deposit since it is made out to the estate. Might be a little bit easier if it were made out to Mom.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Be careful about advising Client to endorse the check and writing “personal representative” under her signature. Client is not a personal representative, and you don’t
want Client to do anything fraudulent.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I have now run out of ideas. And none of the above ideas are very good ones.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">If it gives you any comfort, I had the exact same problem a couple of months ago when my Mom died. She was 101 and had covered the Roosevelt White House as a cub reporter.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Welcome to modern banking,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Phil Jones</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Philip N. Jones</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Duffy Kekel LLP</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">900 S.W. Fifth Ave. Suite 2500</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Portland, OR 97204</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">pjones@duffykekel.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 226-1371 – office</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 853-1482 – cell</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 226-3574 - fax</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jenna Brozik<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 17, 2023 5:30 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [WSBAPT] Living Trust issue<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal">Hello list mates, <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal">Client’s mother passed away and the mother had a living trust. Client is the Trustee of the Living Trust and only beneficiary. All assets were titled in the Living Trust. However, client received a check in the mail after mother passed
away. Apparently the mother overpaid her healthcare premium and the company issued her a check for the overpayment. The check is made out to the Estate. Client called to ask company to make it out to Living Trust. Company has refused. Company has refused
to reissue the check under any name. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal">Should client just open up a bank account under the Estate to get this check deposited? No probate is necessary in this case. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Lucida Calligraphy"">Jenna Brozik</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif">Managing Attorney</span></i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">PRINZ & BROZIK PLLC</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br>
445 S. Grand Avenue<br>
Pullman, WA 99163<br>
509-338-0908 Telephone<br>
509-338-3527 Facsimile</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-564472791998888172xmsonormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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