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Yes, yes, and yes. This is an area where dysfunctional families create all the fun in practicing law. The law is not well-developed and attorneys tend to disagree on the proper procedure, as indicated in this string of posts. The only good news is that
the issue does not surface regularly, in my experience.
<div>Phil Jones<br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">Philip N. Jones
<div>Duffy Kekel LLP</div>
<div>Portland, OR</div>
<div>pjones@duffykekel.com</div>
<div>(503) 853-1482 cell</div>
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<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Oct 5, 2022, at 4:42 PM, Brent Williams-Ruth <brent@williams-ruthlaw.com> wrote:<br>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">This has been extremely helpful and insightful. Sadly, the one thing that has not been accounted for is when the family absolutely is at odds with each other and refuse even basic civil conversation. Everything
is met with suspicion and claims of misdoing. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">Thank you for the dialogue. </div>
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<p><b><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Brent Williams-Ruth</span></b><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> (pronouns: he/him)<br>
<i>Attorney-At-Law</i></span></p>
<p><b><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Law Offices of Brent Williams-Ruth, </span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><font size="1">a division of BWR Consulting, PLLC</font></span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></b></p>
<p><b><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Physical Address: 500 S 336th Street, Suite 214; Federal Way, WA 98003</span></b><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></p>
<p><b><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><font color="#ff0000">**EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY**</font> All mail sent through the USPS should be sent to the following address: </span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">PO BOX 3319;
Federal Way, WA 98063 </span></b></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Office/Scheduling Phone:<span style="color:#004080"> </span><font color="#ff0000">(253) 285-7751</font></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Direct:<font color="#ff0000"> (253) 285-7453</font></span></p>
<p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><a href="mailto:Brent@Williams-RuthLaw.com" target="_blank">e-mail</a> / <a href="https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.williams-ruthlaw.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cpjones%40duffykekel.com%7Cc5db2f0d78474172de5e08daa6e82847%7C2d66ed5354fa4c2f8c4dbff1aca5479d%7C0%7C0%7C638005813306546560%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=hneGEx%2Bxtlw8tHPcrq8EK7tdMklcqthLNjeLWYiBWJQ%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="http://www.williams-ruthlaw.com/" shash="KYhj9Vk50/eFachbZivvhSjfOJRmpq8PbOryI4JvykXU/fK/3Ip44o5Yc25LlKselGCjd1qbYUEKYGmCF8f2WgrR1PjaoCE2gIwov5ogB2KGarLnlNPLs4+5PmI96oL0YNqaWwge/R4mQ4NrkhChtqX7w/z9jlYqib0fg33inXw=" target="_blank">website</a> /</span><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><a href="https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fbwrlaw&data=05%7C01%7Cpjones%40duffykekel.com%7Cc5db2f0d78474172de5e08daa6e82847%7C2d66ed5354fa4c2f8c4dbff1aca5479d%7C0%7C0%7C638005813306546560%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=pBvOLoqespBvSqDNVeEAGkjoEWFDJxCYfMamFB9EZSc%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="http://www.facebook.com/bwrlaw" shash="JYeoZndwPcX6IxVT4ERRWaN8hDhN/wynyWQJlPRTgBd6PWdrVj35kx75JpdxoAV0Rwm6H26xOr1P4TCjh9R9c1qkRAWN4wUbqITvJ7vvTWu6TItga2E8BSGfOXBwWTql6uFRQdXsVlLXcPNh+NPCx1H9SnVmzrWBc9Cdj2+6SSM=" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">facebook</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> / </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></p>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 7:01 AM Philip N. Jones <<a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com">pjones@duffykekel.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">Yes, this is a difficult question., although it does not come up often. You might be able to talk the financial institution into disclosing the name of the charity, but probably not. One possible solution: charities like to send thank-you
acknowledgements to the family. Ask the family members to watch their mail closely.
<div>One piece of good news is that naming a charitable beneficiary to an IRA or a life insurance policy results in a 100% offsetting estate tax charitable deduction. So if you are unable (for lack of information) to include the asset on the estate tax return,
you will also be unable to take the equal offsetting estate tax deduction. Thus the taxable estate and the tax will be exactly the same both ways, and you will have no extra tax to pay, and no interest, and no penalty. So if the family discovers years later
that Mom left a billion dollar life insurance policy to the Red Cross, the tax does not change one cent. No need to lose sleep.</div>
<div>But if Mom left a billion dollar life insurance policy to her sister, you have big problems if you cannot get information about the policy. But as I said, this problem rarely surfaces. I have never encountered it.</div>
<div>Phil Jones<br>
<div><br>
<div dir="ltr">Philip N. Jones
<div>Duffy Kekel LLP</div>
<div>Portland, OR</div>
<div><a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com" target="_blank">pjones@duffykekel.com</a></div>
<div>(503) 853-1482 cell</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Oct 4, 2022, at 6:35 PM, Lewis, Amy C. <<a href="mailto:ALewis@eisenhowerlaw.com" target="_blank">ALewis@eisenhowerlaw.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Plus, what if the beneficiary is a charity that would qualify for a charitable estate tax deduction. How would the PR know that if the financial institution won’t disclose that information?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<font size="4" color="#777777"><span style="font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><u></u>
<p style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif";margin:0in 0in 6pt"><span style="font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">Amy Lewis, Attorney<br>
Pronouns she/her/hers<br>
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</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><strong style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"></strong>phone 253.572.4500 | fax 253.272.5732 |</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Diane J. Kiepe<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 4, 2022 8:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Part of the Gross Taxable Estate?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I have been fortunate in that I have never gotten push back from an institution for a copy of date of death statements when I explain they are required for tax filings and
that the PR has a duty to report the value of the account on the tax return. If I were to get push back, I would not hesitate to file a pleading and seek fees. A personal representative, in my opinion, stands in the shoes of the decedent for all final reporting
purposes. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I realize institutions like to think they know what the law is but sometimes they need re-educating.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Script MT Bold"">Diane J. Kiepe<u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Script MT Bold""><u></u> <u></u></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Diane J. Kiepe<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Douglas Eden<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">717 W. Sprague Ave.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Suite 1500<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Spokane, WA 99201<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:djkiepe@depdslaw.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">djkiepe@depdslaw.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">509-455-5300<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Philip N. Jones<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 4, 2022 12:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Part of the Gross Taxable Estate?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think the PR will have difficulty getting information about the IRA directly from the IRA custodian (the financial institution), since the IRA now belongs to the beneficiaries. It does not belong to the PR. The beneficiaries are now
the only people to whom the custodian will release information regarding the account. But perhaps the PR can find a copy of the monthly statement for the month of death and use that statement to prepare the estate tax return without obtaining any additional
information from the custodian. <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sone custodians are more lax in this department and will release information, but they really aren’t supposed to. For example, if the IRA is one of several accounts held on the date of death by the decedent in a master umbrella account,
sone financial institutions will give the PR a copy of the entire statement, without stopping to think that the PR doesn’t really own the IRA. The beneficiaries do. In Brent’s case, the financial institution disclosed the brokerage account, but not the IRA.
That is exactly how it is supposed to be done. The financial institution did it right.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">Phil Jones<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Philip N. Jones <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Duffy Kekel LLP<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Portland, OR<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com" target="_blank">pjones@duffykekel.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(503) 853-1482 cell<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">On Oct 4, 2022, at 1:37 AM, Heather de Vrieze <<a href="mailto:heatherd@westseattlelaw.com" target="_blank">heatherd@westseattlelaw.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Yes, part of GTE.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">No, distributing it outside of probate does not remove it from the taxable estate.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Personal Representative should be able to get info, though you might need to send a letter explaining this.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Heather</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16pt;font-family:"Vladimir Script";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Heather S. de Vrieze</span><b><span style="font-size:16pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
</span></b><i><span style="font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Attorney-at-Law</span></i><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Brent Williams-Ruth<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 3, 2022 5:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [WSBAPT] Part of the Gross Taxable Estate?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Greetings List - <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Have a probate where Decedent set up beneficiary for his brokerage and his traditional IRA. The brokerage house disclosed the brokerage distribution but did not disclose the IRA. In a conversation with Executor believe each residual beneficiary
received the same amount. If this is true - the estate would surpass the Washington estate tax threshold - if a traditional IRA transferred through beneficiary is counted as part of the GTE. <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Simply by distributing outside of probate does not remove it from the gross taxable estate, correct?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p><b>Brent Williams-Ruth</b> <br>
<i>Attorney-At-Law</i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><b>Law Offices of Brent Williams-Ruth, a division of BWR Consulting, PLLC</b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Office/Scheduling Phone: (253) 285-7751<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Direct: (253) 285-7453<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>500 S. 336th St., Suite 214; Federal Way, WA 98003<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p><b>As of July 1, 2019 - I began operating as the Law Offices of Brent Williams-Ruth a division of BWR Consulting, PLLC. Please note the new points of contact <a href="mailto:Brent@Williams-RuthLaw.com" target="_blank">Brent@Williams-RuthLaw.com</a> and <a href="https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.williams-ruthlaw.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cpjones%40duffykekel.com%7Cc5db2f0d78474172de5e08daa6e82847%7C2d66ed5354fa4c2f8c4dbff1aca5479d%7C0%7C0%7C638005813306702805%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=H55jmdSFfmLsrByeRNBojIa3jJOZ9stJjxJMDGwf0%2BY%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="http://www.williams-ruthlaw.com/" shash="ZAY9KTQYFgovGtKES/YR4YxRLFy+c2AhbOAWJKraMHVdvLuJUkhFgTVMm/k+A0tPdkK9BXbe5lPSM+idfPcDteIYguao1vRncRfWtP/q9hNLsUyuMn042JZX4JWx5vWgN+Ft7oVXhjEiN8j3gjtjoosOOzDVZLedEEhCNlmqS6s=" target="_blank">www.Williams-RuthLaw.com</a> </b><u></u><u></u></p>
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