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<p class="MsoNormal">How do you know who the beneficiary is if the financial institution won’t share that information?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<font size="4" color="#777777"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><o:p style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">
<p style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; MARGIN: 0in 0in 6pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Amy Lewis,
Attorney<br>Pronouns she/her/hers<br></span><img style="HEIGHT: 68px; WIDTH: 211px" src="cid:Logo_fa335a1d-9f24-4802-a3dd-b58f259e3c98.png" width="211" height="68" border="0"><br></p></o:p></font></font></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><span style="COLOR: #000000"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">909 A Street, Suite
600 | Tacoma, WA 98402<br></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><strong style="COLOR: #000000"></strong>phone 253.572.4500 | fax 253.272.5732
|</span></span></span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </span><a href="http://www.eisenhowerlaw.com/"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #c00000; text-underline: none">www.eisenhowerlaw.com</span></a></font>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Philip N. Jones<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 4, 2022 10:31 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Part of the Gross Taxable Estate?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I almost always agree with Diane, but this time I respectfully dissent.
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Usually the PR and the probate beneficiaries and the IRA beneficiaries are all the same people or part of the same happy family, but if the IRA beneficiary is not part of the happy group, it is the IRA beneficiary who is obligated to provide
asset/valuation information to enable the PR to complete the estate tax return, not the financial institution. Yes, some financial institutions will cooperate, particularly when threatened, but technically the PR does not own the account, and the decedent
no longer owns the account, and the fact that the PR stands in the shoes of the decedent is not relevant. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It is just like a PR trying to get information about a life insurance policy. The insurance carrier will not talk to the PR. If the PR wants a copy of the Form 712 (the estate tax valuation form describing the value of the policy), then
the beneficiary must be the person to request it, and is the only person who can legally request it. The IRS has sone procedures to be followed if a PR cannot get financial information, but those procedures generally do not involve the financial institution
who gave away the money. They involve the beneficiary who received the money. (I am in Lisbon right now, or I would find the cite.)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">My experience, like Diane’s, is that these problems do not surface regularly. But when they do, you have to chase after the beneficiary. This is based on the IRC section that requires every beneficiary to file an estate tax return or
cooperate in the preparation of the return being filed by the PR. (Again, I apologize for not having a cite readily at hand.) No similar code section applies to financial institutions. (If anyone can find such a code section, please speak up, and I will
buy you a ginjinha, the local spirit, but you will have to come here to get it.)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">In short: If you want to sue someone, sue the beneficiary. (If I could figure out how to say that in Portuguese, I would.)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best wishes, and wish you were here. The weather is delightful, and the seafood delicious.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Phil Jones<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Philip N. Jones <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Duffy Kekel LLP<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Portland, OR<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com">pjones@duffykekel.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(503) 853-1482 cell<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On Oct 4, 2022, at 5:35 PM, Megan S. Farr <<a href="mailto:MSF@farrlawgroup.com">MSF@farrlawgroup.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">And, letting the custodian know you will be requesting fees often helps them change their tune.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#595959">Megan S. Farr</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#595959">Member |<i> </i>
</span><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#AEB349">Farr Law Group, </span></b><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#AEB349">PLLC</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#AEBC4F">
</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#595959">1110 Stevenson Avenue, Ste. 100 | P.O. Box 890 | Enumclaw, WA 98022-0890</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#595959">360.825.6581 (o) | 360.825.0780 (f)
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#595959"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#595959">This communication is intended only for the above-named recipient. It might contain information that is subject to the attorney-client privilege and/or is otherwise confidential. If you are
not the intended recipient, please immediately notify the above-named sender.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Diane J. Kiepe<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 4, 2022 8:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Part of the Gross Taxable Estate?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I have been fortunate in that I have never gotten push back from an institution for a copy of date of death statements when I explain they are required for tax filings and
that the PR has a duty to report the value of the account on the tax return. If I were to get push back, I would not hesitate to file a pleading and seek fees. A personal representative, in my opinion, stands in the shoes of the decedent for all final reporting
purposes. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I realize institutions like to think they know what the law is but sometimes they need re-educating.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Script MT Bold"">Diane J. Kiepe</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Script MT Bold""> </span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Diane J. Kiepe<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Douglas Eden<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">717 W. Sprague Ave.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Suite 1500<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Spokane, WA 99201<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:djkiepe@depdslaw.com"><span style="color:#0563C1">djkiepe@depdslaw.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">509-455-5300<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Philip N. Jones<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 4, 2022 12:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Part of the Gross Taxable Estate?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think the PR will have difficulty getting information about the IRA directly from the IRA custodian (the financial institution), since the IRA now belongs to the beneficiaries. It does not belong to the PR. The beneficiaries are now
the only people to whom the custodian will release information regarding the account. But perhaps the PR can find a copy of the monthly statement for the month of death and use that statement to prepare the estate tax return without obtaining any additional
information from the custodian. <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sone custodians are more lax in this department and will release information, but they really aren’t supposed to. For example, if the IRA is one of several accounts held on the date of death by the decedent in a master umbrella account,
sone financial institutions will give the PR a copy of the entire statement, without stopping to think that the PR doesn’t really own the IRA. The beneficiaries do. In Brent’s case, the financial institution disclosed the brokerage account, but not the IRA.
That is exactly how it is supposed to be done. The financial institution did it right.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Phil Jones<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Philip N. Jones <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Duffy Kekel LLP<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Portland, OR<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com">pjones@duffykekel.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(503) 853-1482 cell<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On Oct 4, 2022, at 1:37 AM, Heather de Vrieze <<a href="mailto:heatherd@westseattlelaw.com">heatherd@westseattlelaw.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Yes, part of GTE.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">No, distributing it outside of probate does not remove it from the taxable estate.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Personal Representative should be able to get info, though you might need to send a letter explaining this.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Heather</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Vladimir Script";color:#1F497D">Heather S. de Vrieze</span><b><span style="font-size:16.0pt;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span></b><i><span style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#1F497D">Attorney-at-Law</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#1F497D"><img border="0" width="189" height="105" style="width:1.9687in;height:1.0937in" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D8D7DD.89B90D20" alt="image001.jpg"></span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#44524E">3909 California Avenue SW</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#44524E">Seattle, WA 98116-3705
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#44524E">(206)938-5500
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:heatherd@westseattlelaw.com"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#44524E">heatherd@westseattlelaw.com</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#44524E">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#002E8A">Click here to connect with de Vrieze | Carney on Facebook:
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Brent Williams-Ruth<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 3, 2022 5:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [WSBAPT] Part of the Gross Taxable Estate?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Greetings List - <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Have a probate where Decedent set up beneficiary for his brokerage and his traditional IRA. The brokerage house disclosed the brokerage distribution but did not disclose the IRA. In a conversation with Executor believe each residual beneficiary
received the same amount. If this is true - the estate would surpass the Washington estate tax threshold - if a traditional IRA transferred through beneficiary is counted as part of the GTE. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Simply by distributing outside of probate does not remove it from the gross taxable estate, correct?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><b>Brent Williams-Ruth</b> <br>
<i>Attorney-At-Law</i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b>Law Offices of Brent Williams-Ruth, a division of BWR Consulting, PLLC</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Office/Scheduling Phone: (253) 285-7751<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Direct: (253) 285-7453<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>500 S. 336th St., Suite 214; Federal Way, WA 98003<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><a href="mailto:Brent@Williams-RuthLaw.com" target="_blank">e-mail</a> / <a href="https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.williams-ruthlaw.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cpjones%40duffykekel.com%7Cf4f772376a2f43e5f56a08daa6267de3%7C2d66ed5354fa4c2f8c4dbff1aca5479d%7C0%7C0%7C638004981518088329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=kjK%2Bb0epvyNrnQSFGRSvNO8wD2b6co4ATYtIS4ZZiCg%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">website</a> / <a href="https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fbwrconsults&data=05%7C01%7Cpjones%40duffykekel.com%7Cf4f772376a2f43e5f56a08daa6267de3%7C2d66ed5354fa4c2f8c4dbff1aca5479d%7C0%7C0%7C638004981518088329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gZ1RI%2BQqfhyxxI5lvsCnIWZYcRkfl1i%2BaCCl1MS3FsQ%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">facebook</a> / <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b>As of July 1, 2019 - I began operating as the Law Offices of Brent Williams-Ruth a division of BWR Consulting, PLLC. Please note the new points of contact <a href="mailto:Brent@Williams-RuthLaw.com">Brent@Williams-RuthLaw.com</a> and <a href="https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.williams-ruthlaw.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cpjones%40duffykekel.com%7Cf4f772376a2f43e5f56a08daa6267de3%7C2d66ed5354fa4c2f8c4dbff1aca5479d%7C0%7C0%7C638004981518088329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=kjK%2Bb0epvyNrnQSFGRSvNO8wD2b6co4ATYtIS4ZZiCg%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">www.Williams-RuthLaw.com</a> </b><o:p></o:p></p>
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