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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Well, Roger, I would start with the Div I case (published) <u>In re GF...</u>. <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><div class="ydpf3cd0113citation ydpf3cd0113d-inline-block ydpf3cd0113mb-2" style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 18.2px; color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: IBM Plex Sans, Helvetica Neue, Arial, sans-serif; display: inline-block !important;">170 Wn. App. 631 (Wash. Ct. App. 2012) </div><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: IBM Plex Sans, Helvetica Neue, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">170 Wn. App. 631 <span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">where the court enforced an oral CIR agreement. Basically, it directs you to the factors laid out in <u>Matson</u></span></span></span><div class="ydpf3cd0113citation ydpf3cd0113mb-2" style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 18.2px; color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: IBM Plex Sans, Helvetica Neue, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></div></div></div><div><br></div>
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On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 04:26:42 PM PDT, Roger Hawkes <roger@law-hawks.com> wrote:
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<p class="yiv9890691302MsoNormal">Thanks, Jayne; is there a cir pre or post case published?</p>
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<p class="yiv9890691302MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jayne Marsh Gilbert<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 12, 2022 2:52 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Long Term CIR</p>
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<p class="yiv9890691302MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">You can represent both of them in creating a CIR agreement (similar concepts to pre-/post nuptial agreements, full disclosure of assets and debts). Their individual Wills
may reference/restate the CIR agreement.</span></p>
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<p class="yiv9890691302MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">Best practice is to get a signed acknowledgment & waiver of the conflict of interest between the parties before receiving financial info. </span></p>
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<p class="yiv9890691302MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">Even with that, one of the parties must have advice from an independent attorney before executing the agreement and an attorney certification. </span></p>
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<p class="yiv9890691302MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">The certification of both attys are then attached to the CIR agreement. </span></p>
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<p class="yiv9890691302MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">Enforcement of the CIR agreement is dependent on the fairness doctrine and the procedural requirements of the antenuptial agreement. My 5 cents</span></p>
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<p class="yiv9890691302MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 02:28:41 PM PDT, Joshua McKarcher <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:josh@mckarcherlaw.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:josh@mckarcherlaw.com">josh@mckarcherlaw.com</a>> wrote:
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<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;">Hi Tom,</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;">I truly value your perspective and want to learn here: Why does Paul’s original description scream risk that is so far beyond planning that I have always
assumed planners do for unmarried couples or married couples with kids from prior marriages (even one they wish to disinherit)? I do not serve a ton of CIR couples, so it seems as though there may be something I am missing.
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<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;">Are you willing to elaborate? If they are willing to pay the fees necessary to address the risks and “cabin them in,” I am not understanding why this
is so unusually risky. But I learn every day! </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:UI sans-serif;color:#26282A;">😊</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
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<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;">All my best, Josh</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
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<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">
<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tom Westbrook<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 12, 2022 3:00 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Long Term CIR</span></p>
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<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1F497D;">I realize that I am on old guy, but my advice here is “run Forrest run”……………</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1F497D;"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1F497D;">This has too many traps and is the amount you get paid really worth the risk?</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1F497D;"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1F497D;">Sincerely,</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1F497D;"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1F497D;">Tom</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1F497D;"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1F497D;">Thomas J. Westbrook</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1F497D;">Attorney at Law</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
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<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1F497D;"><img id="yiv9890691302Picture_x0020_2" border="0" width="152" height="62" style="width:1.5833in;min-height:.6458in;" src="cid:ho4J5snuXbxXC563UoyY" yahoo_partid="1.2"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:New serif;color:#1F497D;">324 West Bay Drive NW, Suite 201</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:New serif;color:#1F497D;">Olympia, WA 98502</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:New serif;color:#1F497D;">(360) 866-4000 phone</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:New serif;color:#1F497D;">(360) 866--3832 fax</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
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<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:red;">COVID POLICY:</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1F497D;">Our firm continues to follow guidance from the CDC and Governor Inslee’s office regarding social distancing and the wearing of face coverings,
and we encourage the public and our clients to do the same. Our staff is still working remotely much of the time so electronic communication by phone and email continues to be encouraged. We appreciate your patience and understanding.</span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
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<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">
<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Joshua McKarcher<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 12, 2022 1:53 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Long Term CIR</span></p>
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<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;">Hmmm. I better test myself here: An unmarried couple doing joint estate planning is forming a joint representation no different than a married couple,
or two business partners . . . right? No secrets, and if they fight and can’t solve it, they both lose you.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;">This is not a pre-nup; it’s two people planning together. You can’t keep secrets of Client 1 from Client 2 (which I bring up right after saying “Hello”
in my conference room, before I care if they’re married or not), etc., but otherwise, I’m not sure I follow what conflicts there are here.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;">Aside from that, however, here this couple seems probably very likely to have a CIR that would indeed produce “spousal-heirship-like results” after
the death of one of them. But by planning they will make that complication largely irrelevant by doing it in wills or a trust. I think?</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;">And they will have the benefit of lifetime powers for finances and health care, which could be unpleasant surprises for them if certain family “disapprove.”
(The pre-<i>Obergefell</i> same-sex couple problem.)</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;">At most you may wish to ask them if they want the documents (if it gives property to the other of them) auto-revoked upon physical separation or “something”
equivalent to legal separation or divorce. (I have no idea if Washington allows CIRs to be dissolved by a court filing like a legal separation or divorce. I’m just sitting here realizing I’ve never had the situation present itself.)</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;">Good luck!</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
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<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;">Best, Josh
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
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<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">
<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Roger Hawkes<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 12, 2022 2:18 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Long Term CIR</span></p>
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<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">Yes separate estate plans work; waiver of conflicts is harder because no one really knows what they ‘own’.</span></p>
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<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">
<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Neumiller<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 12, 2022 10:02 AM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> [WSBAPT] Long Term CIR</span></p>
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<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;">I received a call by a man who wants to do estate planning for him and his wife of thirty years. Prior kids on both sides. At the end of the call
setting the appointment, he sort of chuckled and said “Well, I just call her my wife. We never married.” Uh-oh. So, if memory serves me, I don’t think you can inherit under a CIR. So, do I just prepare estate plans for them as if they are separate people?
Is this a conflict that I can even “disclose and waive” around? Rumor is that the man was hesitant in even going to an attorney. Any advice would be great.
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<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" name="Paul_A__Neumiller"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"><img id="yiv9890691302Picture_x0020_1" border="0" width="250" height="150" style="width:2.6041in;min-height:1.5625in;" src="cid:uJT2Dwa1Oh028aYtg8qS" yahoo_partid="1.3"></span></a><span style=""></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p>
<p class="yiv9890691302msonormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:serif;color:#26282A;">IMPORTANT NOTICE: This e-mail message is intended to be received only by persons entitled to receive the confidential information it may contain. E-mail
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