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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16.0pt">Thank you all (sorry if my text is large – something going on here). I have an accounting background, passed the CPA a lifetime ago, and have an LLM in tax so I feel comfortable with some 1041 work and all
706 and 709 work – I am having trouble getting a decedent’s tax information through the TDS and Tax Practitioner line now just says they can’t take your call if your not in collection
</span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">☹</span><span style="font-size:16.0pt"> I do think someone mentioned I have to sign in as an ER and provide that information and I think I found step by step instructions. Typically,
as SOP I had a 2848 signed by the PR and had great luck with tax practitioner line – I guess not anymore.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Script MT Bold"">Diane J. Kiepe<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Script MT Bold""><o:p> </o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Diane J. Kiepe<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Douglas Eden<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">717 W. Sprague Ave.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Suite 1500<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Spokane, WA 99201<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:djkiepe@depdslaw.com"><span style="color:#0563C1">djkiepe@depdslaw.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">509-455-5300<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Philip N. Jones<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 14, 2022 2:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Personal Rep and Income Taxes<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Warning: war story follows.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I once received a phone call from a professional fiduciary. She had received from her CPA a fiduciary income tax return for an estate. She was to review it, sign it, write
out a check, and mail the whole enchilada to the IRS. She wanted me to tell her why the taxes were so high. She sent me the return to review. I called her back with one question: Had she cashed in an IRA? Yes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">She should have known better. But the point is that the client (in this case a professional) and the CPA and the attorney need to work very closely together. None of them
should even get out of bed in the morning without calling the other two to make sure that getting out of bed is OK.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Phil Jones<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Philip N. Jones<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Duffy Kekel LLP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">900 S.W. Fifth Ave. Suite 2500<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Portland, OR 97204<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com"><span style="color:#0563C1">pjones@duffykekel.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 226-1371 – office<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 853-1482 – cell<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 226-3574 - fax<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Joshua McKarcher<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 14, 2022 12:32 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Personal Rep and Income Taxes<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I offer the below to the extent it helps newer estate administration lawyers, or those who are unsure of income taxation for PRs and trustees.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I do what Philip does, and I endorse his views. With respect, and intending encouragement to all, I do not believe an administration attorney can likely ethically rely on "I don't do taxes" to avoid potential liability for some of the traps
Phil lists in his email. So, here’s how you might consider approaching the issue (and if you see terms below you don’t know, just start by googling those at least and you’ll slowly start to get the gist!
<span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">😊</span>):<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If the decedent's former preparer was H&R Block (etc.) or a tax preparer who does not file (or perhaps even know of) “short-year returns,” I recommend they allow me to email my go-to CPA firm at the outset to engage them for the final 1040
and what I hope will be a single fiscal-year return on the 1041, if we can distribute or "turn off" income within about 11 months from month of death.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">(In re “short year” and “fiscal year” and “11 months”: Notice when you file for an EIN online, you can choose to end the estate’s tax year at the end of the month immediately preceding the month in which the decedent died. Decedent dies
August 1 (through 31), 202<u>2</u>, fiscal year ends July 31, 202<u>3</u>. Fiscal year vs. calendar year income tax reporting! One income tax return on 1041, instead of two! Yay! And then imagine you finish administration by February 2023 and could file a
“short year” return that is both the estate’s “first” and “final” income tax return, filed long before either the end of the tax year (July 31, 2023) or the deadline even later in 2023. And imagine you can finalize and close your estate (if no estate tax returns
and fairly straightforward income tax returns) before July in my example. Again, we can make this fun, I promise.)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I then make sure the prior 2-5 years returns get to my office or the CPA (only because I know she will digitize and evaluate them for assets I haven't listed for her already and send me what I need).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">We immediately do a preliminary analysis of the estate's likely taxable assets (or at least its "tax return triggering" assets -- $600 in GROSS income is a very small number): real property to be sold EVEN IF NO GAIN, annuities left to
the estate (upon which we observe a moment of silence, har har), investment accounts cranking out surprising amounts of income, corporate/LLC interests paying periodic income, maybe even bank deposit interest -- the usual suspects.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If you just stop and think even this much, you will “get there”:
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Okay, whatever regular ol’ income the decedent was making through the date of death, is now INESCAPABLY the ESTATE’s income in the first instance; cannot avoid it. Next, instead of a filing requirement at $11,000 or whatever it is for
living individuals, it’s now only $600 in a fiscal or calendar tax year; and trusts and estates on 1041s have way higher tax rates (and “compressed brackets”) in general. I can look all that up with a quick Google search to “see” it. Okay, so then we want
individual taxation so that we’re REPORTING the income on the 1041, but passing out the income, providing K-1s (“Just like for LLCs?” “Yes!”) and having beneficiaries PAY the tax individually (if we have beneficiaries who will “get it” and will “actually do
so”). So then <b><u>if</u></b> we get income distributed out of the estate in time (but by what deadline?) then we can achieve pass-through income taxation at
<u>individual</u> rates for everyone vs. having the estate or trust pay a crazy amount of income tax because nobody was paying attention.<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">From there, sure, your CPA who is alerted to that initial analysis can perhaps “mostly take it from there” and analyze the beneficiaries’ tax rates, states of residence, and the possibility of simply paying the tax inside the estate or
trust (which sometimes does make sense, especially if it’s very little or you simply just KNOW beneficiaries will make it more difficult or simply will never report it and pay it, etc. etc.).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">That key CPA relationship, I respectfully encourage others out there, is part and parcel of your administration practice. There is tremendous peace knowing you're either going to have a CPA with history with the client (and a new professional
contact/friend/resource) or your own trusted partner who can help you spot issues and set calendar reminders in their usual process and work with the client directly once the big picture is clear and then involve you as needed and at the end when it’s time
to file and close the estate.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">(No client anywhere ever says, "No, thank you. I'd like to figure out all of that by myself and will hope to land on my own a good CPA to help with it!"
<span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">😉</span>)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If you make yourself “know” that much and go learn some of the jargon above, I have to believe you will protect yourself from a potential liability claim someday that may be hard to defend by saying, “I chose to do estate administration
but not learn even the basics of estate income taxation.” With respect, I just don’t personally know if that would fly.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I'm guessing the 2017 resource Phil mentions "teaches" (or at least refers to) all of the above. But if not, find a professional tax friend who will teach you and give you at least a basic checklist. Over time, as each step in the process
presents itself, you will be shocked how much you learn and become conversant with.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Good luck!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best regards, Josh <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Joshua D. McKarcher<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">McKarcher Law PLLC<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">537 6th Street<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Clarkston, WA 99403<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">(509) 758-3345<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">(509) 758-3314 (fax)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:josh@mckarcherlaw.com">josh@mckarcherlaw.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mckarcherlaw.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cpjones%40duffykekel.com%7C2961345f644744e21ac508da96884f88%7C2d66ed5354fa4c2f8c4dbff1aca5479d%7C0%7C0%7C637987812588928449%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=b3vQXjbZXgZf35jmrCHjBmlQ4HP9SHIjg8tSho%2BjakI%3D&reserved=0">www.mckarcherlaw.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> on behalf of Philip N. Jones <<a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com">pjones@duffykekel.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 13, 2022 5:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Personal Rep and Income Taxes<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">We all need to work hand-in-glove with the family’s tax return preparer for the entire duration of the probate or of the trust administration. If the decedent’s preparer
will be continuing to work with the PR/trustee, that is ideal, and the preparer usually knows the status of prior returns and whether any of the prior returns have been audited or other problems developed. I like to call the preparer (with the client’s permission)
at the outset of the probate and establish that I will be preparing the federal and state estate tax returns, and the preparer will prepare the final 1040 and all of the 1041s for the duration of the probate. But we all need to have a basic understanding
of the fiduciary income tax, because so many decisions made during the probate or trust administration impact the fiduciary income tax and vice versa. We cannot fully separate the tax issues from the estate/trust issues. If the PR or trustee closes the probate
or concludes the trust administration and distributes the assets without making sure that all of the income taxes (both 1040 and 1041) have been paid, the PR/trustee will incur fiduciary liability (personal liability) for the tax, and the beneficiaries will
incur transferee liability. And there are things we might do during the estate/trust administration that could trigger huge income tax liabilities. And those liabilities are often avoidable.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">If you have the materials from the November 2017 Seattle Estate Planning Council annual seminar, those materials include a lengthy chapter on the fiduciary income tax, with
lots of references to Washington law.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Phil Jones</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Philip N. Jones</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Duffy Kekel LLP</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">900 S.W. Fifth Ave. Suite 2500</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Portland, OR 97204</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#0563C1">pjones@duffykekel.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 226-1371 – office</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 853-1482 – cell</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 226-3574 - fax</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Neumiller<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 13, 2022 3:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Personal Rep and Income Taxes<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">“Hi, thank you using me as your attorney to help guide you through the probate process. But I am an attorney and not an accountant, bookkeeper, or certified public accountant.
You will need to hire an accountant to assist you in finalizing the decedent’s taxes. Let me know what you guys come up with.” I also put this in writing in my standard PR duties letter to the PR right after probate is opened: “Additionally, you are responsible
for filing Decedent's final individual income tax return for the year of the date of death. You may be asked to provide the IRS with Form 56 (Notice Concerning Fiduciary Relationship) to establish that you are acting as the Decedent’s personal representative.
If you would like, I will work with you and your accountant on the preparation of this return.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">IMPORTANT NOTICE: This e-mail message is intended to be received only by persons entitled to receive the confidential information it may contain. E-mail messages to clients
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">
wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Diane J. Kiepe<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 13, 2022 3:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv' <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [WSBAPT] Personal Rep and Income Taxes<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16.0pt">Hello All,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16.0pt">I know this conversation went around before but I’m hoping one or two (or more) of you would share your process in a probate in dealing with income taxes for the decedent; in particular how to find out if
there are any outstanding taxes owed for prior years.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16.0pt">Thanks in advance.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Script MT Bold"">Diane J. Kiepe</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Script MT Bold""> </span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Diane J. Kiepe<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Douglas Eden<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">717 W. Sprague Ave.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Suite 1500<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Spokane, WA 99201<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:djkiepe@depdslaw.com">djkiepe@depdslaw.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">509-455-5300<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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