<html><body><span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:#000000; font-size:12pt;"><div>Thanks Phil - I appreciate the three responses. If there are no CLEs or other resources for someone to get the knowledge referred to, how ......? Thanks Mike </div><div><br></div><div><img id="sigimg0" title="signature image" src="cid:sigimg0@5d6c674a28a164ac48aece8ce5058f54" border="0" alt=""></div><div><br><br></div>
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Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Irrevocable Trusts<br>
From: "Philip N. Jones" <<a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com">pjones@duffykekel.com</a>><br>
Date: Fri, December 18, 2020 9:31 am<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
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</style> <div class="WordSection1"> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I agree with John and Heather. This is a very complicated area, and requires an understanding of gift tax, estate tax, and fiduciary income tax. For example, the provisions regarding the distribution of income will determine whether the trust pays the income tax (at high rates) or the beneficiary pays the income tax (at typically lower rates). And capital gains will usually be taxed to the trust. And grantor trust language will cause the income to be taxed to the donor. That is just one example of the complexities, and there are dozens more. The fact that it is irrevocable means that any errors in drafting will be difficult to remedy. And the IRS might not honor those changes. Find someone experienced in these areas of the law to help you out. As they say on TV, do not try this at home.<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Phil Jones<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Portland, OR<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Philip N. Jones<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Duffy Kekel LLP<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">900 S.W. Fifth Ave. Suite 2500<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Portland, OR 97204<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><a target="_blank" href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com"><span style="color:#0563C1">pjones@duffykekel.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 226-1371 – office<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 853-1482 – cell<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 226-3574 - fax<o:p></o:p></span></div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Creahan<br> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 17, 2020 6:15 PM<br> <b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Irrevocable Trusts<o:p></o:p></div> </div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-bottom:6.0pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959">I agree with Heather.<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-bottom:6.0pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959">There are very significant differences between an irrevocable trust and an RLT and administration can be expensive. <o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-bottom:6.0pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959">For instance, an irrevocable trust is a separate taxpayer – so it needs its own EIN and will typically be subject to higher income taxes than an individual. In addition, I generally recommend naming a professional trustee.<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-bottom:6.0pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959">I’m not aware of any relevant CLEs, but it is worth exploring why the client wants to do this and whether the costs outweigh the benefits.<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-bottom:6.0pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959">I would be happy to chat for a few minutes if it would help.<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-bottom:6.0pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959">Hope this helps,<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-bottom:6.0pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959">John<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-bottom:6.0pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Tw Cen MT",sans-serif;color:#595959">John Creahan</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Tw Cen MT",sans-serif;color:#595959"><o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Tw Cen MT",sans-serif;color:#595959"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.cairn-law.com/"><span style="color:#595959">www.cairn-law.com</span></a><br> 206-578-5877<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Tw Cen MT",sans-serif;color:#595959">Fremont office:<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Tw Cen MT",sans-serif;color:#595959">3417 Evanston Ave. N, Suite 312<br> Seattle, WA 98103</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Tw Cen MT",sans-serif;color:#4F6228"><o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><b>From:</b> <a target="_blank" href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com"> wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Heather de Vrieze<br> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 17, 2020 4:33 PM<br> <b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Irrevocable Trusts<o:p></o:p></div> </div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">A lot depends on the purpose of the trust. Is it a trust established for a special needs beneficiary, for annual gift exclusion transfers, or something else?<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">The language you describe will work to make it irrevocable, but sometimes there is a need to include specific authority to modify to account for changes in the law.<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Heather<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Vladimir Script";color:#1F497D">Heather S. de Vrieze</span><b><span style="font-size:16.0pt;color:#1F497D"><br> </span></b><i><span style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#1F497D">Attorney-at-Law<o:p></o:p></span></i></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><i><span style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#1F497D"><img border="0" width="189" height="105" style="width:1.9687in;height:1.0937in" id="Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D6D520.815A8030" wbeuser="michael@westseattleattorney.com"></span></i><i><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></i></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#44524E">3909 California Avenue SW<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#44524E">Seattle, WA 98116-3705 <o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#44524E">(206)938-5500 <o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><a target="_blank" href="mailto:heatherd@westseattlelaw.com"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#44524E">heatherd@westseattlelaw.com</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#44524E"> <o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.westseattlelaw.com/"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#44524E">www.westseattlelaw.com</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#44524E"> <o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#002E8A">Click here to connect with de Vrieze | Carney on Facebook: </span><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></b><a target="_blank" href="https://www.facebook.com/DeVriezeCarney"><b><span style="color:blue;text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="72" height="21" style="width:.75in;height:.2187in" id="Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:image002.png@01D6D520.815A8030" alt="FB Logo" wbeuser="michael@westseattleattorney.com"></span></b></a><o:p></o:p></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#A6A6A6"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#C00000">For your planning, our office will be closed December 24, 25 and 31 and January 1.<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#C00000"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:Nyala;color:#C00000">For the latest information regarding firm operations and precautions in light of the Coronavirus please visit our firm’s website:</span><span style="font-family:Nyala;color:red"> </span><span style="font-family:Nyala"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.westseattlelaw.com/"><span style="color:blue">www.WestSeattleLaw.com</span></a><span style="color:#C00000">.</span><span style="color:red"><o:p></o:p></span></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#7030A0"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#A6A6A6"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#A6A6A6">CONFIDENTIAL & PRIVILEGED. This e-mail message may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this e-mail message and any attachment.</span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Cambria",serif;color:blue"><o:p></o:p></span></div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><b>From:</b> <a target="_blank" href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com"> wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b><a target="_blank" href="mailto:michael@westseattleattorney.com">michael@westseattleattorney.com</a><br> <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 17, 2020 3:54 PM<br> <b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserve <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br> <b>Subject:</b> [WSBAPT] Irrevocable Trusts<o:p></o:p></div> </div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Its been a while since I was asked to do a irrevocable trust. It seems that the primary provision is as follows: <o:p></o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">The Trust shall be irrevocable, and the Trustor hereby </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">expressly relinquishes any right or power, whether along or in conjunction with others, in whatever capacity, to alter, amend, revoke, or terminate the Trust, or any of the terms of this Agreement, in whole or in part, or to designate the persons who shall possess or enjoy the trust property, or the income therefrom. By this instrument, the Trustor intends to and does hereby relinquish absolutely and forever all possession.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Is that sufficient to create the Trust? Are there any other differences between it and a RLT? Any CLEs one could point me to as to "irrevocable trusts" so I can get up to speed? </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Thanks</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Mike </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><img border="0" width="500" height="100" style="width:5.2083in;height:1.0416in" id="sigimg0" src="cid:image003.png@01D6D520.815A8030" wbeuser="michael@westseattleattorney.com"></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div> </div> </div> <hr>***Disclaimer: Please note that RPPT listserv participation is not restricted to practicing attorneys and may include non-practicing attorneys, law students, professionals working in related fields, and others.***<br>
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