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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The 2017 Seattle EPC annual seminar had a presentation on the fiduciary income tax, with extensive materials. That would be a good place to start.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Phil Jones<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Philip N. Jones<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Duffy Kekel LLP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">900 S.W. Fifth Ave. Suite 2500<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Portland, OR 97204<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com"><u><span style="color:#0563C1">pjones@duffykekel.com</span></u></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 226-1371 – office<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 853-1482 – cell<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(503) 226-3574 - fax<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>michael@westseattleattorney.com<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 18, 2020 11:06 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [WSBAPT] Irrevocable Trusts<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Thanks Phil - I appreciate the three responses. If there are no CLEs or other resources for someone to get the knowledge referred to, how ......? Thanks Mike <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">-------- Original Message --------<br>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Irrevocable Trusts<br>
From: "Philip N. Jones" <<a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com"><span style="color:windowtext">pjones@duffykekel.com</span></a>><br>
Date: Fri, December 18, 2020 9:31 am<br>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com"><span style="color:windowtext">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</span></a>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">I agree with John and Heather. This is a very complicated area, and requires an understanding of gift tax, estate tax, and fiduciary income tax. For example,
the provisions regarding the distribution of income will determine whether the trust pays the income tax (at high rates) or the beneficiary pays the income tax (at typically lower rates). And capital gains will usually be taxed to the trust. And grantor
trust language will cause the income to be taxed to the donor. That is just one example of the complexities, and there are dozens more. The fact that it is irrevocable means that any errors in drafting will be difficult to remedy. And the IRS might not
honor those changes. Find someone experienced in these areas of the law to help you out. As they say on TV, do not try this at home.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Phil Jones</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Portland, OR</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Philip N. Jones</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Duffy Kekel LLP</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">900 S.W. Fifth Ave. Suite 2500</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Portland, OR 97204</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><a href="mailto:pjones@duffykekel.com" target="_blank"><u><span style="color:#0563C1">pjones@duffykekel.com</span></u></a></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">(503) 226-1371 – office</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">(503) 853-1482 – cell</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">(503) 226-3574 - fax</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">
<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com"><u><span style="color:blue">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</span></u></a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com"><u><span style="color:blue">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</span></u></a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Creahan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 17, 2020 6:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com"><u><span style="color:blue">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</span></u></a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Irrevocable Trusts<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959">I agree with Heather.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959">There are very significant differences between an irrevocable trust and an RLT and administration can be expensive.
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959">For instance, an irrevocable trust is a separate taxpayer – so it needs its own EIN and will typically be subject to higher income taxes than an individual.
In addition, I generally recommend naming a professional trustee.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959">I’m not aware of any relevant CLEs, but it is worth exploring why the client wants to do this and whether the costs outweigh the benefits.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959">I would be happy to chat for a few minutes if it would help.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959">Hope this helps,</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959">John</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Tw Cen MT",sans-serif;color:#595959">John Creahan</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Tw Cen MT",sans-serif;color:#595959"><a href="http://www.cairn-law.com/" target="_blank"><u>www.cairn-law.com</u></a><br>
206-578-5877</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Tw Cen MT",sans-serif;color:#595959">Fremont office:</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Tw Cen MT",sans-serif;color:#595959">3417 Evanston Ave. N, Suite 312<br>
Seattle, WA 98103</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#595959"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">
<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank"><u><span style="color:blue">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</span></u></a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank"><u><span style="color:blue">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</span></u></a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Heather de Vrieze<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 17, 2020 4:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank"><u><span style="color:blue">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</span></u></a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Irrevocable Trusts<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">A lot depends on the purpose of the trust. Is it a trust established for a special needs beneficiary, for annual gift exclusion transfers, or something else?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">The language you describe will work to make it irrevocable, but sometimes there is a need to include specific authority to modify to account for changes in the
law.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Heather<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Vladimir Script";color:#1F497D">Heather S. de Vrieze</span><b><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span></b><i><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#1F497D">Attorney-at-Law</span></i><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#1F497D"><img border="0" width="189" height="105" style="width:1.9687in;height:1.0937in" id="Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image004.jpg@01D6D539.C8B29FD0"></span></i><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#44524E">3909 California Avenue SW</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#44524E">Seattle, WA 98116-3705
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#44524E">(206)938-5500
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="mailto:heatherd@westseattlelaw.com" target="_blank"><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#44524E">heatherd@westseattlelaw.com</span></u></a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#44524E">
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="http://www.westseattlelaw.com/" target="_blank"><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#44524E">www.westseattlelaw.com</span></u></a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Nyala;color:#44524E">
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#002E8A">Click here to connect with de Vrieze | Carney on Facebook:
</span></b><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/DeVriezeCarney" target="_blank"><b><span style="color:blue"><img border="0" width="72" height="21" style="width:.75in;height:.2187in" id="Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:image005.png@01D6D539.C8B29FD0" alt="FB Logo"></span></b></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">
<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank"><u><span style="color:blue">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</span></u></a> <<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank"><u><span style="color:blue">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</span></u></a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:michael@westseattleattorney.com" target="_blank"><u><span style="color:blue">michael@westseattleattorney.com</span></u></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 17, 2020 3:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserve <<a href="mailto:wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank"><u><span style="color:blue">wsbapt@lists.wsbarppt.com</span></u></a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [WSBAPT] Irrevocable Trusts<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Its been a while since I was asked to do a irrevocable trust. It seems that the primary provision is as follows: </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">The Trust shall be irrevocable, and the Trustor hereby </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">expressly relinquishes
any right or power, whether along or in conjunction with others, in whatever capacity, to alter, amend, revoke, or terminate the Trust, or any of the terms of this Agreement, in whole or in part, or to designate the persons who shall possess or enjoy the trust
property, or the income therefrom. By this instrument, the Trustor intends to and does hereby relinquish absolutely and forever all possession.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Is that sufficient to create the Trust? Are there any other differences between it and a RLT? Any CLEs one could point me to as to "irrevocable trusts" so
I can get up to speed? </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Thanks</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Mike </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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