[WSBAPT] Subject: Re: are pet animals tangible personal property?
Kate Szurek
kate at skagitlaw.com
Thu Oct 5 10:22:37 PDT 2023
To perhaps be more clear, my question arises not off the animals; they can be given generically as many of you have described and I often have drafted, e.g., "any dog I may have at my death . . ." The question I have focuses on the recipient. The client wants to be able to make changes during her lifetime about the placement of her animals at her death without the need for a codicil or revised Will. This is why the ability to make use of a tangible personal property list would seem to work especially well, if indeed that will fly (i.e., are animals TPP?).
I think from the responses, and from a bit more research, making use of a TPP list will work. Both as to animals and as to recipients.
If anyone disagrees, on the position that animals cannot be given on death using a TPP list, please let me know. Otherwise, I'm going with it.
Thanks for the lively discussion!
Kate
-----Original Message-----
From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Diane J. Kiepe
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2023 9:18 AM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Subject: Re: are pet animals tangible personal property?
I have used both but for trust in Will I don't think you have to keep changing. I just say "any pets owned at my death".....
Diane J. Kiepe
Douglas Eden, P.S.
717 W. Sprague Ave., Suite 1500
Spokane, WA 99201
djkiepe at depdslaw.com
509-455-5300
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-----Original Message-----
From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Kate Szurek
Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2023 1:50 PM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Subject: Re: are pet animals tangible personal property?
That's what I've always done. But it means a new Will every time the person (or even animal) changes, without the flexibility of making changes by using a TPP list, incorporated into the existing Will by reference and by statute.
I'm hearing tacit agreement that animals can be said to qualify as "tangible personal property," so I'm going with that. Will look at specific bequest of cash to go to whoever takes the animal(s). Kind of fun to contemplate how to make this happen!
Thanks for all the responses.
Kate
Kate
-----Original Message-----
From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Karen Cobb
Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2023 1:02 PM
To: wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com
Subject: [WSBAPT] Subject: Re: are pet animals tangible personal property?
I include gifting and care of pets, along with any related monetary gifts to care for them, in the specific bequests portion of the Will.
Karen L. Cobb
Attorney at Law
(206) 486-8003
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: adult adoption (ak at seattle-silvalaw.com)
2. are pet animals tangible personal property? (Kate Szurek)
3. Re: are pet animals tangible personal property?
(ak at seattle-silvalaw.com)
4. Re: Anatomical Gift Instructions (ak at seattle-silvalaw.com)
5. Re: are pet animals tangible personal property? (Joshua McKarcher)
6. Re: are pet animals tangible personal property?
(Brent Williams-Ruth)
7. RCW 11.12.460 - electronic will (Cindy Wysocki)
8. level of distrust/animosity of PR reason for removal
(Diane J. Kiepe)
9. Re: level of distrust/animosity of PR reason for removal
(Shannon Jones)
10. Re: are pet animals tangible personal property? (Kailei Feeney)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2023 18:19:52 -0700
From: ak at seattle-silvalaw.com
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] adult adoption
Message-ID: <ee9892d95dc89d12801b8ff4a7b43738 at seattle-silvalaw.com>
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Law Office of
F.ANDREKITA SILVA
_______________________________________________________
October 3, 2023
Diane,
It has been 7 years or more since I have done an adoption, which was actually an adult adoption. Unfortunately, I could not offhand find that electronic file. However, you can get an Adoption packet from the King County Superior Court Adoption Services department. The price may have gone up but it was really cheap, like $30.00, the last time I got it.
I know you are in a different county, but the basic information required on your petition, etc. should be the same. You'd probably need to look at your local rules for issues re: presentations, motions, etc.
Below is the link to get more info.
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__kingcounty.gov_en_legacy_courts_superior-2Dcourt_family_adoption-2Dservices-23-3A-7E-3Atext-3DAdoption-2520packets-2Cin-2520completing-2520the-2520adoption-2520process&d=DwICAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=oN3JkEDGkupTWuVes3l0RZhfKP4xFyO5dcDA8kNgBps&m=Ap1QO4KloCxZt-7JHVZt4oEnJTq5bFcqtnebChKEzt55z1aoKUsxSEUFrJ5qWczQ&s=OKHQc3IqoeH3F_pL0UtHqB1o2bqMO8xxnT-IdhBHpOo&e=.
andrekita
Law Office of F. Andrekita Silva
1325 Fourth Avenue, Suite 940
Seattle, Washington 98101-2509
206-224-8288
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.seattle-2Dsilvalaw.com&d=DwICAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=oN3JkEDGkupTWuVes3l0RZhfKP4xFyO5dcDA8kNgBps&m=Ap1QO4KloCxZt-7JHVZt4oEnJTq5bFcqtnebChKEzt55z1aoKUsxSEUFrJ5qWczQ&s=LmvKBHWmWvNdn9BUo4oW9q0wrI8d8q9jevHXLxCoqZM&e= [1]
On 2023-10-03 10:33, Diane J. Kiepe wrote:
> Hello - anyone have the filing documents to get an order of adoption
> for 2 young adults? I'd appreciate it if you'd be willing to share.
>
> _ _
>
> _Diane J. Kiepe_
>
> Douglas Eden, P.S.
>
> 717 W. Sprague Ave., Suite 1500
>
> Spokane, WA 99201
>
> djkiepe at depdslaw.com
>
> 509-455-5300
>
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2023 01:46:22 +0000
From: Kate Szurek <kate at skagitlaw.com>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: [WSBAPT] are pet animals tangible personal property?
Message-ID:
<SN4PR0801MB8000BBDD9F5C5594BF45D513D7CBA at SN4PR0801MB8000.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
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Client wants to be able to name who is to receive her pets (parrot, donkey, and horses) when she dies using a TPP list. Does that work?
Animals certainly aren't real property and they are not intangible. But I've never seen it addressed and I'm not finding anything that clearly makes this a realistic possibility.
Your thoughts?? Your experiences??
Thanks, as always.
Kate
Kate Szurek, J.D., LL.M. (in Taxation)
kate at skagitlaw.com<mailto:kate at skagitlaw.com>
[SkagitLaw_Signature (2)]
Skagit Law Group, PLLC
P.O. Box 336 / 227 Freeway Drive, Suite B Mount Vernon, WA 98273
360.336.1000
360.336.6690 (fax)
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2023 19:25:27 -0700
From: ak at seattle-silvalaw.com
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] are pet animals tangible personal property?
Message-ID: <a717064c8efffe4f33a5b9ad92b24349 at seattle-silvalaw.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Law Office of
F.ANDREKITA SILVA
_______________________________________________________
October 3, 2023
Kate, I don't want to offend animal lovers. But, I believe that even though RCW 11.12.260 doesn't expressly say animals are tangible personal property, I believe they are.
In divorce cases -- there is a 2021 published Division I case- Marriage of Niemi where the appellate court expressly found 2 dogs to be the husbands "separate property." It reversed the superior court which treated them like children and gave the wife "visitation" with the dogs.
It is not uncommon for testators to create trusts for their pets. But, I think if they wanted to put them on a tangible personal property list the could do that. I'm thinking if there was a dispute, the probate court would go with the testator's wishes and characterization of their own pet.
I'm curious what others think.
andrekita
Law Office of F. Andrekita Silva
1325 Fourth Avenue, Suite 940
Seattle, Washington 98101-2509
206-224-8288
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.seattle-2Dsilvalaw.com&d=DwICAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=oN3JkEDGkupTWuVes3l0RZhfKP4xFyO5dcDA8kNgBps&m=Ap1QO4KloCxZt-7JHVZt4oEnJTq5bFcqtnebChKEzt55z1aoKUsxSEUFrJ5qWczQ&s=LmvKBHWmWvNdn9BUo4oW9q0wrI8d8q9jevHXLxCoqZM&e=
On 2023-10-03 18:46, Kate Szurek wrote:
> Client wants to be able to name who is to receive her pets (parrot,
> donkey, and horses) when she dies using a TPP list. Does that work?
>
> Animals certainly aren't real property and they are not intangible.
> But I've never seen it addressed and I'm not finding anything that
> clearly makes this a realistic possibility.
>
> Your thoughts?? Your experiences??
>
> Thanks, as always.
>
> Kate
>
> _Kate Szurek_, J.D., LL.M. (in Taxation)
>
> kate at skagitlaw.com
>
> _Skagit Law Group, PLLC_
>
> P.O. Box 336 / 227 Freeway Drive, Suite B
>
> Mount Vernon, WA 98273
>
> 360.336.1000
>
> 360.336.6690 (fax)
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.skagitlaw.com&
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2023 01:33:36 -0700
From: ak at seattle-silvalaw.com
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Anatomical Gift Instructions
Message-ID: <5e44668b8b76ee94d488a7e459434035 at seattle-silvalaw.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Law Office of
F.ANDREKITA SILVA
_______________________________________________________
October 3, 2023
Ann,
I didn?t see that anyone had answered your question.
I ordinarily have a client register as a donor in my presence online with Department of Licensing. It can also be done by mail. You can register to donate most organs and body parts, not sure about the brain.
Separately, I prepare a short statement referring to that donation and what exactly they have registered for donation along with other burial/ funeral/ celebration instructions and have it signed by two witnesses.
Although RCW 68.64.040 says you can do this through a testator?s will, I would discourage that. If a person is not organized and if they haven?t given their family instructions before their death, the deceased could be cremated before anyone thinks of a will. If they have registered with DOL, they don?t need a separate writing, that?s more so that it?s part of the testator?s papers, so that they are sure to discuss this wish with their family, so that their family is aware.
Since your client specifically wants to donate her brain, you may want to do a little research to see if the brain is accepted. Your client may even give thought to if there is a particular institution- i.e., UW Med School, PNW Health Sciences, etc. where client may want to donate. I believe institutions have their own donate forms.
andrekita
Law Office of F. Andrekita Silva
1325 Fourth Avenue, Suite 940
Seattle, Washington 98101-2509
206-224-8288
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On 2023-09-27 12:11, Ann Manley wrote:
> Does anyone have an Anatomical Gift Instructions form they can share?
> My client specifically wants to donate her brain as she has a
> neurological disease.
>
> Or is this better stated in the will?
>
> Ann Manley, Esq.
> The Manley Law Firm, P.S., Inc.
> PO Box 16324
>
> Seattle, WA 98116
> (206)292-3064 / (206)292-3914 fax
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2023 11:57:48 +0000
From: Joshua McKarcher <josh at mckarcherlaw.com>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] are pet animals tangible personal property?
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Andrekita/Kate,
I agree that a TPP memo will work, as there is no question under current law that animals are personal property (either of an individual testator or of a business entity).
A pet trust can work very well ? when it works as a practical matter, such as for one or two pets regarding which (whom? ?) the recipient is making a long-term commitment.
Kate?s client sounds like one who has a lot of individual animals to find new homes for and who knows recipients won?t require financial assistance to care properly for the animals. Especially where the individual recipients may change over time for one or more animals, using a TPP memo is wise.
For those who may be newer at this: Ensure testators know the property descriptions must leave no doubt which animal or other item is being described on each line item, or the gift may fail. I tell clients I love the word ?all? preceding words like jewelry, guns, collectible dolls, quilts, etc., if indeed that is what?s intended.
Else, identifying and distinguishing adjectives (breeds, colors, model/serial numbers, carat weights, metal types, etc.) can really ?save the day? when the time comes.
As an aside, Andrekita, your emails are always just so lovely. Thank you for sharing how you do. The adoption resource for Diane was very helpful.
Best, Josh
Joshua D. McKarcher
McKarcher Law PLLC
537 6th Street
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________________________________
From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> on behalf of ak at seattle-silvalaw.com <ak at seattle-silvalaw.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2023 7:25:27 PM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] are pet animals tangible personal property?
Law Office of
F.ANDREKITA SILVA
_______________________________________________________
October 3, 2023
Kate, I don't want to offend animal lovers. But, I believe that even though RCW 11.12.260 doesn't expressly say animals are tangible personal property, I believe they are.
In divorce cases -- there is a 2021 published Division I case- Marriage of Niemi where the appellate court expressly found 2 dogs to be the husbands "separate property." It reversed the superior court which treated them like children and gave the wife "visitation" with the dogs.
It is not uncommon for testators to create trusts for their pets. But, I think if they wanted to put them on a tangible personal property list the could do that. I'm thinking if there was a dispute, the probate court would go with the testator's wishes and characterization of their own pet.
I'm curious what others think.
andrekita
Law Office of F. Andrekita Silva
1325 Fourth Avenue, Suite 940
Seattle, Washington 98101-2509
206-224-8288
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On 2023-10-03 18:46, Kate Szurek wrote:
Client wants to be able to name who is to receive her pets (parrot, donkey, and horses) when she dies using a TPP list. Does that work?
Animals certainly aren't real property and they are not intangible.
But I've never seen it addressed and I'm not finding anything that clearly makes this a realistic possibility.
Your thoughts?? Your experiences??
Thanks, as always.
Kate
_Kate Szurek_, J.D., LL.M. (in Taxation)
kate at skagitlaw.com<mailto:kate at skagitlaw.com>
_Skagit Law Group, PLLC_
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2023 09:01:31 -0700
From: Brent Williams-Ruth <brent at williams-ruthlaw.com>
To: "WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv" <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] are pet animals tangible personal property?
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I don't disagree - but I will say that discussion of pets is part of my routine conversation. I run through the gamut - children, dependent adults, domesticated animals. That way, I can make sure that if they do have specific intent (generally it is to someone and then to ensure it would go to a no-kill shelter) it is captured.
*Brent Williams-Ruth* (pronouns: he/him)
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On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 6:57?PM Kate Szurek <kate at skagitlaw.com> wrote:
> Client wants to be able to name who is to receive her pets (parrot,
> donkey, and horses) when she dies using a TPP list. Does that work?
>
>
>
> Animals certainly aren?t *real property* and they are not *intangible*.
> But I?ve never seen it addressed and I?m not finding anything that
> clearly makes this a realistic possibility.
>
>
>
> Your thoughts?? Your experiences??
>
>
>
> Thanks, as always.
>
>
>
> Kate
>
>
>
> *Kate Szurek*, J.D., LL.M. (in Taxation)
>
> kate at skagitlaw.com
>
>
>
> [image: SkagitLaw_Signature (2)]
>
> *Skagit Law Group, PLLC*
>
> P.O. Box 336 / 227 Freeway Drive, Suite B
>
> Mount Vernon, WA 98273
>
> 360.336.1000
>
> 360.336.6690 (fax)
>
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:33:08 +0000
From: Cindy Wysocki <Cindy at wysockilaw.com>
To: "wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com" <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: [WSBAPT] RCW 11.12.460 - electronic will
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Hello,
Has anyone deposited an electronic will to a county will repository at the court under RCW 11.12.460? I am wondering how this would be done. Would a custodian provide a certified paper copy under RCW 11.12.460, which the client would deposit to the will repository?
Thank you.
[cid:d7c29f6f-74dc-4032-8acf-9ea790de4277]
Cindy Wysocki, Esq.
Founder and Managing Attorney at Wysocki Law, PLLC
Email: cindy at wysockilaw.com | Office: 206-407-4045
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:55:27 +0000
From: "Diane J. Kiepe" <DJKiepe at depdslaw.com>
To: "'WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv'" <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: [WSBAPT] level of distrust/animosity of PR reason for removal
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Hello -
I feel like someone once shared that bad blood is a reason for removal of PR - if I am remember right, I am hoping someone can share that case with me.
Diane J. Kiepe
Douglas Eden, P.S.
717 W. Sprague Ave., Suite 1500
Spokane, WA 99201
djkiepe at depdslaw.com<mailto:djkiepe at depdslaw.com>
509-455-5300
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2023 18:01:07 +0000
From: Shannon Jones <shannonj at campbellbarnettlaw.com>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] level of distrust/animosity of PR reason for
removal
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As relates to a fiduciary (trustee):
A Trustee may be removed and a successor appointed for reasonable cause, which may include a conflict of interest between the trustee beneficiary and other trust beneficiaries. See RCW 11.98.039 and also Waits v. Hamlin, 55 Wn.App. 193, 776 P.2d, 1003 (1989). A court has discretion to remove a trustee on the ground that bad will or ill feeling between the trustee and the beneficiaries would be detrimental to execution of the Trust. See Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Ctr v Holman, 107 Wn.2d 693, 732 P.2d 974(1987).
From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Diane J. Kiepe
Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2023 10:55 AM
To: 'WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv' <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: [WSBAPT] level of distrust/animosity of PR reason for removal
Importance: High
Hello -
I feel like someone once shared that bad blood is a reason for removal of PR - if I am remember right, I am hoping someone can share that case with me.
Diane J. Kiepe
Douglas Eden, P.S.
717 W. Sprague Ave., Suite 1500
Spokane, WA 99201
djkiepe at depdslaw.com<mailto:djkiepe at depdslaw.com>
509-455-5300
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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2023 18:05:22 +0000
From: Kailei Feeney <kailei at westseattlelaw.com>
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] are pet animals tangible personal property?
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Agreed ? it is part of our intake. In part because if any funds are to go with the pets then the TPP list will not suffice and for most of my clients who it important enough to talk about pets, the TPP list does not feel thorough enough for their needs.
Kailei
Kailei B. Feeney
Attorney-at-Law
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From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Brent Williams-Ruth
Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2023 9:02 AM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] are pet animals tangible personal property?
I don't disagree - but I will say that discussion of pets is part of my routine conversation. I run through the gamut - children, dependent adults, domesticated animals. That way, I can make sure that if they do have specific intent (generally it is to someone and then to ensure it would go to a no-kill shelter) it is captured.
Brent Williams-Ruth (pronouns: he/him)
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On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 6:57?PM Kate Szurek <kate at skagitlaw.com<mailto:kate at skagitlaw.com>> wrote:
Client wants to be able to name who is to receive her pets (parrot, donkey, and horses) when she dies using a TPP list. Does that work?
Animals certainly aren?t real property and they are not intangible. But I?ve never seen it addressed and I?m not finding anything that clearly makes this a realistic possibility.
Your thoughts?? Your experiences??
Thanks, as always.
Kate
Kate Szurek, J.D., LL.M. (in Taxation)
kate at skagitlaw.com<mailto:kate at skagitlaw.com>
[SkagitLaw_Signature (2)]
Skagit Law Group, PLLC
P.O. Box 336 / 227 Freeway Drive, Suite B Mount Vernon, WA 98273
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