[WSBAPT] PRs/TTEEs hiring own children as estate employees

Mon Nov 6 21:30:19 PST 2023

Law Office of F. Andrekita Silva
______________________________________________________________

November 6, 2023

Joshua,

Living in King County, $20.00 for a person’s time sounds pretty 
reasonable to me. That’s pretty close to the legal minimum wage in 
Seattle. I think most housecleaners in Seattle charge at least $25.00 an 
hour. So, in Seattle, I'd let an underemployed adult child have that 
wage.

But, generally, the overall costs you cite seem high to me too.

I had an out-of-state PR who didn’t charge for her time, but she sent me 
a boxful of receipts for out-of-state travel for both herself and her 
husband, purchases that were clearly not related (like a receipt for a 
$500.00 refrigerator, a car repair, all sorts of clothing for the family 
allegedly to attend the funeral, souvenirs at the airport, general 
shopping while in-state for the funeral as well as restaurant meals for 
herself, her husband and a group of the deceased’s friends.) This was in 
addition to cleaning supplies, etc.  There were only two beneficiaries, 
herself and her brother.

I approached the PR from the position that 1) the PR truly didn’t 
understand how to submit expenses and 2) the court really does supervise 
everyone’s work to make sure it complies with our statutes, including 
mine, so we want to get it right.

I empathized with the PR about the stress of attending to her PR 
obligations on top of her regular day. Let her know that in the chaos, 
she may have sent me some receipts that she may have been saving for 
another purpose. I explained that even though she hadn’t charged for her 
time, even though she had the absolute right to do so and I encouraged 
her to do so, her brother could still challenge her expenses. If he did 
so, I explained that the court would review expenses and say yeah or 
nay.

I apologized for my error in not having given more specific guidance 
upfront. I then gave guidance for what kinds of things where permissible 
and not permissible as costs of administration. I explained that I 
didn’t want the estate to incur costs to respond to a challenge by 
brother ( who was of modest means and had already asked to see all 
records, etc.), so better to get it right the first time.  She was 
pretty apologetic and said “you go through and let me know what is okay 
and what I sent in error.”

I think you can gather information from the PR about some of your 
concerns.  Let the PR know the cleaning looks a little high. What does 
PR think? If the deceased was a hoarder, 80 hours of cleaning might be 
lightening speed and a great deal for the estate …  Are other 
beneficiaries familiar with the home? Would they think the cleaning was 
high and is there a risk of a challenge?

Same with bank errands and mileage. In your case, you can let them know 
how to properly claim mileage for errands, and even though it’s 
understandable that they may be more comfortable with a sibling’s 
company when handling errands, the court will expect them to choose 
which one will be compensated - unless there is a reason why the 
presence of both would be required.

If there were MANY trips to the bank, ask about this. Electronic banking 
is pretty common. Would other beneficiaries challenge this? If it's an 
older person walking in to the bank to deposit a check, that might be 
more understandable than a 24 year old feeling like they must deposit a 
check in person. [ My husband still sends a hard copy check to providers 
for utilities, etc.]  But, within reason, the court will expect those 
administering an estate to manage wisely.

It’s our job to make sure that expenses are claimed properly. If there 
is a challenge, we need to demonstrate that we made a proper inquiry and 
that we provided guidance, and that the expenses submitted can be 
defended. I think most PR’s will self correct (or have their kids 
self-correct) when procedures are brought to their attention.

I’ve had a couple situations where one co-PR has taken pretty big 
liberties with their expenses. (Like flying from the Bay area to Seattle 
to go to the bank more than once.)  When expenses look irregular. I ask 
to make sure I understand the submittal. In each case, with a minor 
adjustment (like you can only fly to the bank once), the reasonable PR 
has been willing to shine on the unreasonable PR’s submittal to keep the 
family peace.

So, if there is a way to defend an expense and the potentially harmed 
parties are okay with it, it’s okay with me. If it’s not, then I help 
the parties arrive at a middle ground to avoid a court challenge.

Good luck! It looks like you have your work cut out for you!  Keep us 
posted!

andrekita
Law Office of F. Andrekita Silva
1325 Fourth Avenue, Suite 940
Seattle, Washington 98101-2509
206-224-8288
www.seattle-silvalaw.com

On 2023-11-06 17:52, Joshua McKarcher wrote:
> Thanks Shannon. I loathe the idea of going to court over this. I just
> want to know that I'm not absurd to propose a smaller figure that the
> four of them can divide among themselves however they wish -- but that
> represents something much closer to the amount that would have been
> reasonable to do what needed to be done here. With that I could live,
> and not even charge my client for negotiating. (Please nobody read
> this as Josh running up a bill. I will not bill all this time. There
> is some principle - and some "local practice standards" - at play here
> that are worth the time.) Best, Josh
> 
> From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com
> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Shannon Jones
> Sent: Monday, November 6, 2023 5:58 PM
> To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] PRs/TTEEs hiring own children as estate
> employees
> 
> I opposed a PR's $75 hourly rate and some of her attorney's fees as
> excessive and duplicative through a very detailed analysis and (I
> thought) well-reasoned objection not long ago before the Pierce County
> Probate Commissioner. Basically a house and a car but many thousands
> in fees. The Court Commissioner slightly discounted both the PR hourly
> rate and some duplicative fees. I did not recover my fees. My client
> was the only heir. PR was non-relative and non-heir. I had to file a
> separate TEDRA because a Declaration of Completion had been filed and
> served on the heir. Your facts appear perhaps more egregious and
> you're in a different county. I would say just make sure your client
> is prepared for what might end up a financial wash.
> 
> Shannon R. Jones | Attorney
> 
> Campbell Barnett PLLC
> 
> Direct:  253.848.3515
> 
> Office: 253.848.3513| Fax: 253.845.4941
> 
> 317 South Meridian
> 
> Puyallup, WA 98371
> 
> shannonj at campbellbarnettlaw.com
> 
> campbellbarnettlaw.com [1]
> 
> This transmission contains confidential attorney-client communications
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> 
> From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com
> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Joshua McKarcher
> Sent: Monday, November 6, 2023 4:03 PM
> To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: [WSBAPT] PRs/TTEEs hiring own children as estate employees
> 
> Elderly co-PRs and co-trustees of a joint probate hired their own
> underemployed children - who were already beneficiaries, with the
> co-PRs, of 50% of the estate - to administer a single home, two cars,
> a couple bank accounts, and the usual tangible personal property (in
> non-metropolis Clarkston, mind you).
> 
> Thus, that "50% of the estate" has charged a $200,000 net estate over
> $15,800 in time and mileage for 4 people to clean the house, shop, run
> around town, etc. (This is additional to the $12,000 in reimbursed
> expenses the PRs advanced, and $8,000 in legal fees and costs.)
> 
> Fun facts:
> 
>  	* Over $8,000 of the fees are of the son and daughter, not the two
> PRs/trustees.
> 
>  	* All 4 charged $20/hour for all services.
> 
>  	* All hours on all 4 timesheets are in whole numbers, as is all
> mileage. (Along with mileage are charges for gas fill-ups. Woohoo!)
> 
>  	* 2 hours for each bank visit, often by both PRs.
> 
>  	* 10+ days of the daughter charging 8 hours flat with narrative:
> "cleaning."
> 
>  	* The two kids' "timesheets" were constructed recently, by reference
> to calendars and texts, as they didn't realize they needed to have
> kept contemporaneous time records. The co-PRs' at least were
> apparently kept contemporaneously, even if generously (by virtue of
> the rounding).
> 
> I have never encountered this. I do not object to fiduciary or lawyer
> fees; it's not my norm at all. But this feels "off."
> 
> If you have any experience with addressing such apparent nepotism and
> potential double dipping - or, even if you have a point of view about
> its reasonableness or how on earth one might determine what IS
> reasonable in such a case - I'd be grateful for your two cents.
> 
> I'd even sleep better to be told this is perfectly normal and that
> co-fiduciaries with non-intervention powers can hire anyone they want,
> etc., and no Washington caselaw is going to say otherwise.
> 
> Thanks, Josh
> 
> Joshua D. McKarcher
> 
> McKarcher Law PLLC
> 
> 537 6th Street
> 
> Clarkston, WA 99403
> 
> (509) 758-3345
> 
> (509) 758-3314 (fax)
> 
> josh at mckarcherlaw.com
> 
> www.mckarcherlaw.com [2]
> 
> 
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] https://campbellbarnettlaw.com/
> [2] http://www.mckarcherlaw.com/
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