[WSBAPT] Part of the Gross Taxable Estate?

Wed Oct 5 08:39:02 PDT 2022

This has been extremely helpful and insightful. Sadly, the one thing that
has not been accounted for is when the family absolutely is at odds with
each other and refuse even basic civil conversation. Everything is met with
suspicion and claims of misdoing.

Thank you for the dialogue.

*Brent Williams-Ruth* (pronouns: he/him)
*Attorney-At-Law*

*Law Offices of Brent Williams-Ruth, **a division of BWR Consulting, PLLC*

*Physical Address: 500 S 336th Street, Suite 214; Federal Way, WA 98003*

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e-mail <Brent at Williams-RuthLaw.com> / website
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On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 7:01 AM Philip N. Jones <pjones at duffykekel.com>
wrote:

> Yes, this is a difficult question., although it does not come up often.
> You might be able to talk the financial institution into disclosing the
> name of the charity, but probably not.  One possible solution:  charities
> like to send thank-you acknowledgements to the family.  Ask the family
> members to watch their mail closely.
> One piece of good news is that naming a charitable beneficiary to an IRA
> or a life insurance policy results in a 100% offsetting estate tax
> charitable deduction.  So if you are unable (for lack of information) to
> include the asset on the estate tax return, you will also be unable to take
> the equal offsetting estate tax deduction.  Thus the taxable estate and the
> tax will be exactly the same both ways, and you will have no extra tax to
> pay, and no interest, and no penalty.  So if the family discovers years
> later that Mom left a billion dollar life insurance policy to the Red
> Cross, the tax does not change one cent.  No need to lose sleep.
> But if Mom left a billion dollar life insurance policy to her sister, you
> have big problems if you cannot get information about the policy.  But as I
> said, this problem rarely surfaces.  I have never encountered it.
> Phil Jones
>
> Philip N. Jones
> Duffy Kekel LLP
> Portland, OR
> pjones at duffykekel.com
> (503) 853-1482 cell
>
> On Oct 4, 2022, at 6:35 PM, Lewis, Amy C. <ALewis at eisenhowerlaw.com>
> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Plus, what if the beneficiary is a charity that would qualify for a
> charitable estate tax deduction.  How would the PR know that if the
> financial institution won’t disclose that information?
>
>
>
> Amy Lewis, Attorney
> Pronouns she/her/hers
> [image: Logo_fa335a1d-9f24-4802-a3dd-b58f259e3c98.png]
> 909 A Street, Suite 600 | Tacoma, WA 98402
> phone 253.572.4500 | fax 253.272.5732 | www.eisenhowerlaw.com
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eisenhowerlaw.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cpjones%40duffykekel.com%7Ca14a4075a0b445c239e408daa62ecb26%7C2d66ed5354fa4c2f8c4dbff1aca5479d%7C0%7C0%7C638005017172922485%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yElPxPLhNAWVUOb4GMI%2BbeI4%2BTbZ6rPKaU7jF6Yvdys%3D&reserved=0>
>
> *From:* wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <
> wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> *On Behalf Of *Diane J. Kiepe
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 4, 2022 8:46 AM
> *To:* WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [WSBAPT] Part of the Gross Taxable Estate?
>
>
>
> I have been fortunate in that I have never gotten push back from an
> institution for a copy of date of death statements when I explain they are
> required for tax filings and that the PR has a duty to report the value of
> the account on the tax return.  If I were to get push back, I would not
> hesitate to file a pleading and seek fees.  A personal representative, in
> my opinion, stands in the shoes of the decedent for all final reporting
> purposes.
>
>
>
> I realize institutions like to think they know what the law is but
> sometimes they need re-educating.
>
>
>
> *Diane J. Kiepe*
>
>
>
> Diane J. Kiepe
>
> Douglas Eden
>
> 717 W. Sprague Ave.
>
> Suite 1500
>
> Spokane, WA  99201
>
> djkiepe at depdslaw.com
>
> 509-455-5300
>
>
>
> *From:* wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <
> wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> *On Behalf Of *Philip N. Jones
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 4, 2022 12:03 AM
> *To:* WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [WSBAPT] Part of the Gross Taxable Estate?
>
>
>
> I think the PR will have difficulty getting information about the IRA
> directly from the IRA custodian (the financial institution), since the IRA
> now belongs to the beneficiaries.  It does not belong to the PR.  The
> beneficiaries are now the only people to whom the custodian will release
> information regarding the account.  But perhaps the PR can find a copy of
> the monthly statement for the month of death and use that statement to
> prepare the estate tax return without obtaining any additional information
> from the custodian.
>
> Sone custodians are more lax in this department and will release
> information, but they really aren’t supposed to.  For example, if the IRA
> is one of several accounts held on the date of death by the decedent in a
> master umbrella account, sone financial institutions will give the PR a
> copy of the entire statement, without stopping to think that the PR doesn’t
> really own the IRA.  The beneficiaries do.  In Brent’s case, the financial
> institution disclosed the brokerage account, but not the IRA.  That is
> exactly how it is supposed to be done. The financial institution did it
> right.
>
> Phil Jones
>
> Philip N. Jones
>
> Duffy Kekel LLP
>
> Portland, OR
>
> pjones at duffykekel.com
>
> (503) 853-1482 cell
>
>
>
> On Oct 4, 2022, at 1:37 AM, Heather de Vrieze <heatherd at westseattlelaw.com>
> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Yes, part of GTE.
>
>
>
> No, distributing it outside of probate does not remove it from the taxable
> estate.
>
>
>
> Personal Representative should be able to get info, though you might need
> to send a letter explaining this.
>
>
>
> Heather
>
>
>
> Heather S. de Vrieze
> *Attorney-at-Law*
>
> *[image: image001.jpg]*
>
> 3909 California Avenue SW
>
> Seattle, WA 98116-3705
>
> (206)938-5500
>
> heatherd at westseattlelaw.com
>
> www.westseattlelaw.com
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> *From:* wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <
> wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> *On Behalf Of *Brent Williams-Ruth
> *Sent:* Monday, October 3, 2022 5:19 PM
> *To:* wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com
> *Subject:* [WSBAPT] Part of the Gross Taxable Estate?
>
>
>
> Greetings List -
>
>
>
> Have a probate where Decedent set up beneficiary for his brokerage and his
> traditional IRA. The brokerage house disclosed the brokerage distribution
> but did not disclose the IRA. In a conversation with Executor believe each
> residual beneficiary received the same amount. If this is true - the estate
> would surpass the Washington estate tax threshold - if a traditional IRA
> transferred through beneficiary is counted as part of the GTE.
>
>
>
> Simply by distributing outside of probate does not remove it from the
> gross taxable estate, correct?
>
>
>
> *Brent Williams-Ruth*
> *Attorney-At-Law*
>
> *Law Offices of Brent Williams-Ruth, a division of BWR Consulting, PLLC*
>
> Office/Scheduling Phone: (253) 285-7751
>
> Direct: (253) 285-7453
>
> 500 S. 336th St., Suite 214; Federal Way, WA 98003
>
> e-mail <Brent at Williams-RuthLaw.com> / website
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