[WSBAPT] Part of the Gross Taxable Estate?

Tue Oct 4 10:31:06 PDT 2022

I almost always agree with Diane, but this time I respectfully dissent.
Usually the PR and the probate beneficiaries and the IRA beneficiaries are all the same people or part of the same happy family, but if the IRA beneficiary is not part of the happy group, it is the IRA beneficiary who is obligated to provide asset/valuation information to enable the PR to complete the estate tax return, not the financial institution.  Yes, some financial institutions will cooperate, particularly when threatened, but technically the PR does not own the account, and the decedent no longer owns the account, and the fact that the PR stands in the shoes of the decedent is not relevant.
It is just like a PR trying to get information about a life insurance policy.  The insurance carrier will not talk to the PR.  If the PR wants a copy of the Form 712 (the estate tax valuation form describing the value of the policy), then the beneficiary must be the person to request it, and is the only person who can legally request it.  The IRS has sone procedures to be followed if a PR cannot get financial information, but those procedures generally do not involve the financial institution who gave away the money.  They involve the beneficiary who received the money.  (I am in Lisbon right now, or I would find the cite.)
My experience, like Diane’s, is that these problems do not surface regularly.  But when they do, you have to chase after the beneficiary.  This is based on the IRC section that requires every beneficiary to file an estate tax return or cooperate in the preparation of the return being filed by the PR.   (Again, I apologize for not having a cite readily at hand.)  No similar code section applies to financial institutions.  (If anyone can find such a code section, please speak up, and I will buy you a ginjinha, the local spirit, but you will have to come here to get it.)
In short:  If you want to sue someone, sue the beneficiary.  (If I could figure out how to say that in Portuguese, I would.)
Best wishes, and wish you were here.  The weather is delightful, and the seafood delicious.
Phil Jones

Philip N. Jones
Duffy Kekel LLP
Portland, OR
pjones at duffykekel.com
(503) 853-1482 cell

On Oct 4, 2022, at 5:35 PM, Megan S. Farr <MSF at farrlawgroup.com> wrote:

And, letting the custodian know you will be requesting fees often helps them change their tune.

Megan S. Farr
Member | Farr Law Group, PLLC
1110 Stevenson Avenue, Ste. 100 | P.O. Box 890 | Enumclaw, WA 98022-0890
360.825.6581 (o) | 360.825.0780 (f)

This communication is intended only for the above-named recipient.  It might contain information that is subject to the attorney-client privilege and/or is otherwise confidential.  If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately notify the above-named sender.

From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Diane J. Kiepe
Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2022 8:46 AM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Part of the Gross Taxable Estate?

I have been fortunate in that I have never gotten push back from an institution for a copy of date of death statements when I explain they are required for tax filings and that the PR has a duty to report the value of the account on the tax return.  If I were to get push back, I would not hesitate to file a pleading and seek fees.  A personal representative, in my opinion, stands in the shoes of the decedent for all final reporting purposes.

I realize institutions like to think they know what the law is but sometimes they need re-educating.

Diane J. Kiepe

Diane J. Kiepe
Douglas Eden
717 W. Sprague Ave.
Suite 1500
Spokane, WA  99201
djkiepe at depdslaw.com<mailto:djkiepe at depdslaw.com>
509-455-5300

From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Philip N. Jones
Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2022 12:03 AM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Part of the Gross Taxable Estate?

I think the PR will have difficulty getting information about the IRA directly from the IRA custodian (the financial institution), since the IRA now belongs to the beneficiaries.  It does not belong to the PR.  The beneficiaries are now the only people to whom the custodian will release information regarding the account.  But perhaps the PR can find a copy of the monthly statement for the month of death and use that statement to prepare the estate tax return without obtaining any additional information from the custodian.
Sone custodians are more lax in this department and will release information, but they really aren’t supposed to.  For example, if the IRA is one of several accounts held on the date of death by the decedent in a master umbrella account, sone financial institutions will give the PR a copy of the entire statement, without stopping to think that the PR doesn’t really own the IRA.  The beneficiaries do.  In Brent’s case, the financial institution disclosed the brokerage account, but not the IRA.  That is exactly how it is supposed to be done. The financial institution did it right.
Phil Jones
Philip N. Jones
Duffy Kekel LLP
Portland, OR
pjones at duffykekel.com<mailto:pjones at duffykekel.com>
(503) 853-1482 cell

On Oct 4, 2022, at 1:37 AM, Heather de Vrieze <heatherd at westseattlelaw.com<mailto:heatherd at westseattlelaw.com>> wrote:

Yes, part of GTE.

No, distributing it outside of probate does not remove it from the taxable estate.

Personal Representative should be able to get info, though you might need to send a letter explaining this.

Heather

Heather S. de Vrieze
Attorney-at-Law
[image001.jpg]
3909 California Avenue SW
Seattle, WA 98116-3705
(206)938-5500
heatherd at westseattlelaw.com<mailto:heatherd at westseattlelaw.com>
www.westseattlelaw.com<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.westseattlelaw.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cpjones%40duffykekel.com%7Cf4f772376a2f43e5f56a08daa6267de3%7C2d66ed5354fa4c2f8c4dbff1aca5479d%7C0%7C0%7C638004981518088329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gcMLX%2BEhUTdLif1wzo09vFXk%2B6dt9GUPX%2BTrep69apI%3D&reserved=0>
Click here to connect with de Vrieze | Carney on Facebook:   [image002.png] <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FDeVriezeCarney&data=05%7C01%7Cpjones%40duffykekel.com%7Cf4f772376a2f43e5f56a08daa6267de3%7C2d66ed5354fa4c2f8c4dbff1aca5479d%7C0%7C0%7C638004981518088329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XuDIxi6yPZw5wyh8wE9hlXL%2BcAjgX1dRp4YoXBxCpgA%3D&reserved=0>

CONFIDENTIAL & PRIVILEGED. This e-mail message may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information.  If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this e-mail message and any attachment.

From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Brent Williams-Ruth
Sent: Monday, October 3, 2022 5:19 PM
To: wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: [WSBAPT] Part of the Gross Taxable Estate?

Greetings List -

Have a probate where Decedent set up beneficiary for his brokerage and his traditional IRA. The brokerage house disclosed the brokerage distribution but did not disclose the IRA. In a conversation with Executor believe each residual beneficiary received the same amount. If this is true - the estate would surpass the Washington estate tax threshold - if a traditional IRA transferred through beneficiary is counted as part of the GTE.

Simply by distributing outside of probate does not remove it from the gross taxable estate, correct?

Brent Williams-Ruth
Attorney-At-Law

Law Offices of Brent Williams-Ruth, a division of BWR Consulting, PLLC

Office/Scheduling Phone: (253) 285-7751

Direct: (253) 285-7453

500 S. 336th St., Suite 214; Federal Way, WA 98003

e-mail<mailto:Brent at Williams-RuthLaw.com> / website<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.williams-ruthlaw.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cpjones%40duffykekel.com%7Cf4f772376a2f43e5f56a08daa6267de3%7C2d66ed5354fa4c2f8c4dbff1aca5479d%7C0%7C0%7C638004981518088329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=kjK%2Bb0epvyNrnQSFGRSvNO8wD2b6co4ATYtIS4ZZiCg%3D&reserved=0> / facebook<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fbwrconsults&data=05%7C01%7Cpjones%40duffykekel.com%7Cf4f772376a2f43e5f56a08daa6267de3%7C2d66ed5354fa4c2f8c4dbff1aca5479d%7C0%7C0%7C638004981518088329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gZ1RI%2BQqfhyxxI5lvsCnIWZYcRkfl1i%2BaCCl1MS3FsQ%3D&reserved=0> /

As of July 1, 2019 - I began operating as the Law Offices of Brent Williams-Ruth a division of BWR Consulting, PLLC. Please note the new points of contact Brent at Williams-RuthLaw.com<mailto:Brent at Williams-RuthLaw.com> and www.Williams-RuthLaw.com<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.williams-ruthlaw.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cpjones%40duffykekel.com%7Cf4f772376a2f43e5f56a08daa6267de3%7C2d66ed5354fa4c2f8c4dbff1aca5479d%7C0%7C0%7C638004981518088329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=kjK%2Bb0epvyNrnQSFGRSvNO8wD2b6co4ATYtIS4ZZiCg%3D&reserved=0>
***Disclaimer: Please note that RPPT listserv participation is not restricted to practicing attorneys and may include non-practicing attorneys, law students, professionals working in related fields, and others.***
_______________________________________________
WSBAPT mailing list
WSBAPT at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:WSBAPT at lists.wsbarppt.com>
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/wsbapt<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.fsr.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fwsbapt&data=05%7C01%7Cpjones%40duffykekel.com%7Cf4f772376a2f43e5f56a08daa6267de3%7C2d66ed5354fa4c2f8c4dbff1aca5479d%7C0%7C0%7C638004981518088329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dDXtXgh8QFAOOhDPXaeGhc8D%2BYSSvuDTw6z%2BONJaPCQ%3D&reserved=0>
***Disclaimer: Please note that RPPT listserv participation is not restricted to practicing attorneys and may include non-practicing attorneys, law students, professionals working in related fields, and others.***
_______________________________________________
WSBAPT mailing list
WSBAPT at lists.wsbarppt.com
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/wsbapt
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/wsbapt/attachments/20221004/e9da6b3e/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 17884 bytes
Desc: image001.jpg
URL: <http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/wsbapt/attachments/20221004/e9da6b3e/image001.jpg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image002.png
Type: image/png
Size: 18009 bytes
Desc: image002.png
URL: <http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/wsbapt/attachments/20221004/e9da6b3e/image002.png>