[WSBAPT] Joint Account with no Surviving Joint Owner
Candace Wilkerson
cwilkerson at wongfleming.com
Thu Jun 2 11:06:04 PDT 2022
I tried talking with a Wells Fargo bank employee about this very issue once. Exactly the response Eric mentioned below. They had given my elderly client a pamphlet with *very* tiny writing that had a caution on page 35 of 60 about JTWROS accounts, and the bank employee provided me with one of those. Useless.
Candace Wilkerson
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Top Ranked Law Firm for 2015 by Fortune Magazine and American Lawyer Media
Candace Wilkerson | Senior Associate | Wong Fleming
10675 Willows Road NE, Suite 250 | Redmond, WA 98052
Phone: 425.869.4040 | Fax: 425.869.4050
cwilkerson at wongfleming.com<mailto:cwilkerson at wongfleming.com>
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Before proceeding, please note: If you are not a current client of Wong Fleming, please do not include any information in this e-mail that you or someone else considers to be of a confidential or secret nature. Wong Fleming has no duty to keep confidential any of the information you provide. Neither the transmission nor receipt of your information is considered a request for legal advice, securing legal services or retaining a lawyer. An attorney-client relationship with Wong Fleming or any lawyer at Wong Fleming is not established until and unless Wong Fleming agrees to such a relationship as reflected in a separate writing.
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From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Eric Nelsen
Sent: Thursday, June 2, 2022 1:41 PM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Joint Account with no Surviving Joint Owner
I love that case but wish I had such evidence more often, and I could find the bank employee who actually opened the account, who remembers the interaction, and who testifies that they didn't discuss ROS with the depositor and decided to check the ROS box themselves. More often what I have gotten is an "I don't recall meeting with them, but bank policy and practice is to always advise the new depositor of the different types of accounts" blah blah blah cover-our-butts-and-admit-nothing.
On the other hand, I think Marcus is right about a declaratory action. Maybe gather enough circumstantial evidence of contrary intent to file a Complaint and sue the unlocatable GF and take a default...
Sincerely,
Eric
Eric C. Nelsen
Sayre Law Offices, PLLC
1417 31st Ave South
Seattle WA 98144-3909
206-625-0092
eric at sayrelawoffices.com<mailto:eric at sayrelawoffices.com>
Covid-19 Update - All attorneys are working remotely during regular business hours and are available via email and by phone. Videoconferencing also is available. Signing of estate planning documents can be completed and will be handled on a case-by-case basis. Please direct mail and deliveries to the Seattle office.
From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Marcus J. Fry
Sent: Thursday, June 2, 2022 10:19 AM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Joint Account with no Surviving Joint Owner
Take a look at the Taufen v. Kirpes case, 155 Wash.App. 598 (Div. 3 2010). Despite this decision, I still encounter bank tellers telling clients to check the joint owner with ROS box when a person simply wants to grant access to someone to assist in paying bills, but not for the intention of inheriting the funds in the account at death. I should note the box does not explain the legal implications of the choice. Might be the exact situation for GF. Could file a declaratory action against GF.
-Marcus
Marcus J. Fry
Attorney | Witherspoon * Kelley
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From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Eric Nelsen
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 4:32 PM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Joint Account with no Surviving Joint Owner
I don't think it's just a difficulty with evidence, though perhaps that was a factor considered in drafting the controlling statute. The statute dictates unequivocally that it's the account agreement that determines survivorship, unless there was a provable contrary intent at the time the agreement was entered. Once it's entered, I think the parties are assumed to know that's what they agreed to, and as a policy matter I don't think the legislature or the banks want to get into a conceptual dispute about "which" dollars were "intended" to be paid to the survivor. It's the whole account no matter the source of the deposit made by the account holders, and no matter when before death the money was deposited. Subject to a superwill under Ch. 11.11 RCW, anyway.
As to "why," well, I think it's really just because that's the way the statute reads. Certainly a different rule could have been enacted, that parsed more carefully intent as to each chunk of money. But that clearly ain't how it works under the existing statute. And we all know that commingling separate property funds with community funds is a fine way to destroy the separate character. (Not that cp is necessarily controlling here anyway, since we're talking JTWROS that could be between two unrelated persons.)
Sincerely,
Eric
Eric C. Nelsen
Sayre Law Offices, PLLC
1417 31st Ave South
Seattle WA 98144-3909
206-625-0092
eric at sayrelawoffices.com<mailto:eric at sayrelawoffices.com>
Covid-19 Update - All attorneys are working remotely during regular business hours and are available via email and by phone. Videoconferencing also is available. Signing of estate planning documents can be completed and will be handled on a case-by-case basis. Please direct mail and deliveries to the Seattle office.
From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Roger Hawkes
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 3:59 PM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Joint Account with no Surviving Joint Owner
Agreed, due to evidence difficulty. But I am pretty certain this occurs in many cases: one community member inherits or otherwise gets a separate chunk and deposits in a 'joint account' not intending to convert it to jtwros but simply as convenient. Assuming there is ample proof of that intent, why should it be inherited by the spouse or be taken as part of a marital settlement??
From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Eric Nelsen
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 2:35 PM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Joint Account with no Surviving Joint Owner
Not relevant. The statute clearly states that intent at formation of the JTWROS account is the relevant timeframe for any evidence attempting to contradict the ROS.
I think this makes sense. You can't open a joint account with the intention "money in this account goes to the survivor" and then later on deposit some money and think, "except for this money."
Sincerely,
Eric
Eric C. Nelsen
Sayre Law Offices, PLLC
1417 31st Ave South
Seattle WA 98144-3909
206-625-0092
eric at sayrelawoffices.com<mailto:eric at sayrelawoffices.com>
Covid-19 Update - All attorneys are working remotely during regular business hours and are available via email and by phone. Videoconferencing also is available. Signing of estate planning documents can be completed and will be handled on a case-by-case basis. Please direct mail and deliveries to the Seattle office.
From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Roger Hawkes
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 2:19 PM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Joint Account with no Surviving Joint Owner
And what about intentions at the times of deposits?
From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Eric Nelsen
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 11:49 AM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Joint Account with no Surviving Joint Owner
Unfortunately it's not a separate property issue. It was his money during life; the account designation of JTWROS makes it her money automatically after his death, "unless there is clear and convincing evidence of a contrary intent at the time the account was created." Which is a virtually impossible standard; who has evidence of that time they created the account, beyond perhaps the document signed with the bank?
RCW 30A.22.100<https://url.emailprotection.link/?bdBuI2R7g_YGID3CirWplb7uzJ8-tKuw7e497I-CI-uC0oJOm6hwoBZeOKrmm64034EwSxRHXF1u82p1TB2x3PRsgvOaCaeqPSZPYn3B5H2mviSY9DZCS64XDbZomJvRlotKPUx_X2of7unme4-u-EZEj0d7FB0G5XWffpMVBaEg~>(3).
Sincerely,
Eric
Eric C. Nelsen
Sayre Law Offices, PLLC
1417 31st Ave South
Seattle WA 98144-3909
206-625-0092
eric at sayrelawoffices.com<mailto:eric at sayrelawoffices.com>
Covid-19 Update - All attorneys are working remotely during regular business hours and are available via email and by phone. Videoconferencing also is available. Signing of estate planning documents can be completed and will be handled on a case-by-case basis. Please direct mail and deliveries to the Seattle office.
From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Jeff at bellanddavispllc.com<mailto:Jeff at bellanddavispllc.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 11:27 AM
To: 'WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv' <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Joint Account with no Surviving Joint Owner
But what if I can prove the monies in the account were the decedent's separate property, i.e, earnings and an inheritance from his mother?
W. Jeff Davis
BELL & DAVIS PLLC
P.O. Box 510
720 E. Washington Street, Suite 105
Sequim WA 98382
Phone: (360) 683.1129
Fax: (360) 683.1258
email: jeff at bellanddavispllc.com<mailto:jeff at bellanddavispllc.com>
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From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Eric Nelsen
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 11:22 AM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Joint Account with no Surviving Joint Owner
It's a non-probate asset so Estate doesn't have an immediate right to the funds. If there is a basis for imposing a portion of Estate expenses on the non-probate asset, there might be a right. See RCW 11.10.040<https://url.emailprotection.link/?bOU20IsYf1xC8dh71M2n-y1fPoXcK9G3HyzNuEKonqM2iBLWTNJB6zpluIaCTM6Nes0aD7jy8OkrtFW3kJL4VwSv7h2DsbRCJjXF7Yp2DdocYiW9pgYC1c0KjbKaXIcM_6IlsyrTs0sP-uM9KjYbcUZad7_RvpOQ18bfjxiNJh08~> and that RCW Chapter generally, and RCW 11.18.200<https://url.emailprotection.link/?bmmvD0cNVsbSs9-tGC3Yf-DvszCL1qkhjLKH6QxI8kuNsKY8BJ2IZVYkxQNBUZkJZJwDy45JRvdMHPUmRKE0ajTNAoxXJAhDGfA2fYq0UgutaaCCVz1KGN_v_MUpfcnqH>.
Sincerely,
Eric
Eric C. Nelsen
Sayre Law Offices, PLLC
1417 31st Ave South
Seattle WA 98144-3909
206-625-0092
eric at sayrelawoffices.com<mailto:eric at sayrelawoffices.com>
Covid-19 Update - All attorneys are working remotely during regular business hours and are available via email and by phone. Videoconferencing also is available. Signing of estate planning documents can be completed and will be handled on a case-by-case basis. Please direct mail and deliveries to the Seattle office.
From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Jeff at bellanddavispllc.com<mailto:Jeff at bellanddavispllc.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 11:02 AM
To: 'WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv' <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>>
Subject: [WSBAPT] Joint Account with no Surviving Joint Owner
Listmates:
At time of death, decedent had a joint bank account with gf. Its been over six months and gf cannot now be found. Bank says estate can't access the account. Is there anyway for estate to get at account, or is the money going to the State?
Jeff Davis
W. Jeff Davis
BELL & DAVIS PLLC
P.O. Box 510
720 E. Washington Street, Suite 105
Sequim WA 98382
Phone: (360) 683.1129
Fax: (360) 683.1258
email: jeff at bellanddavispllc.com<mailto:jeff at bellanddavispllc.com>
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