[WSBAPT] Requirement for Death Cert in Probate

Thu Feb 10 13:59:52 PST 2022

And getting a death certificate is not necessarily a walk in the park these days. I just tried getting one for a client’s grandfather, who died in the 90’s, in order to clear title pursuant to request from title company- request for certificate  kept getting kicked back by VitalCheck/Snohomish county which kept demanding unspecified ID verification documents. After submitting documentation showing both title company and my client were requesting me to obtain the Death Certificate, copies of client’s ID and copies of the birth certificate for her and her father to show “linkage”, I finally was told I needed to get a court order (a POA wasn’t even good enough!?!).  Client is now trying to request it herself from Africa. Very frustrating for all!

Cyrus W. Field, Attorney at Law (admitted in Washington and Oregon); Phone: 360-472-1223 

Mail: POB 367, Shaw Island, WA 98286; Physical Office:  640 Mullis St #214, Friday Harbor, WA

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From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Eric Nelsen
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2022 1:08 PM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Requirement for Death Cert in Probate

Mark, do you know who submitted--pro se husband? Or a deceived lawyer? Or a truly dishonest lawyer?

I really hate this kind of rulemaking; it’s a classic method of accreting another layer of bureaucracy onto a simple process by overcorrecting for a rare risk.

“We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is in it and stop there lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot stove lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove lid again and that is well but also she will never sit down on a cold one anymore.”

Mark Twain, Following the Equator (1897).

Caveat: In King County at least, the ex parte process is severely underfunded and understaffed, and commissioners and judges on the calendar have to plow through inordinate amounts of paperwork. It’s probably the same in many counties. I can understand wanting a clear, easy method of being sure the person is actually deceased before starting the probate. But this whole system is still founded on trusting people to do their jobs properly and in good faith. We can’t be constantly doublechecking everybody. 

Sincerely,

Eric

Eric C. Nelsen

Sayre Law Offices, PLLC

1417 31st Ave South

Seattle WA 98144-3909

206-625-0092

 <mailto:eric at sayrelawoffices.com> eric at sayrelawoffices.com

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From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > On Behalf Of Mark Vohr
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2022 12:40 PM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Requirement for Death Cert in Probate

This is an interesting discussion.  My recollection is that in King County some years ago a husband successfully opened a probate with respect to the death of his spouse.  Turns out the spouse was not dead.  That sparked some local courts and commissioners to want death certificates.

I believe that is the backdrop which petitioners need to address.  

Regards, 

Mark

Ohana Fiduciary Corp.

A Washington Chartered Trust Company

Mark C. Vohr, J.D., CPG, Principal

155 NE 100th St., Suite 209 Seattle, WA  98125

T:  (206) 782-1189 F:  (206) 782-1434

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From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > On Behalf Of Inge Fordham
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2022 11:55 AM
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Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Requirement for Death Cert in Probate

I agree with Eric on the verified petition and our duties as officers of the court.  Unfortunately, not all courts agree.  I attempted to file a petition in Pierce County recently where a family needed to commence probate before the death certificate was issued.  The petition was kicked back and the Commissioner specifically requested a death certificate.  Different Commissioners may have different standards (at least in Pierce Co.).  Kind of like filing in the Auditor’s Office…. It really depends on who you get and their subjective belief as to what evidence is “enough.”  You would think a rule such as this would be uniform (and evidentiary standards as well) but application and interpretation varies.  

Inge A. Fordham | Attorney

Fordham Law, PLLC

3218 Sixth Avenue | Tacoma, WA 98406

Office: (253) 348-2657 | Mobile: (206) 778-3131

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From: <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > on behalf of Eric Nelsen <eric at sayrelawoffices.com <mailto:eric at sayrelawoffices.com> >
Reply-To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Date: Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 11:48 AM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Requirement for Death Cert in Probate

In King County I have had mixed experience with this, but only recently. I never had a petition bounced for it until a few years ago. Now, if it’s Judge Shaffer, my petition gets bounced if I don’t provide separate proof of death. But I think she is the only one who has done that. I just re-submit with a declaration that I’m not filing a death cert but I have other information (contact with or receipt from funeral home, or some other evidence that the person truly has died) confirming that the person has in fact died.

On the issue in general, I’m not aware that there has ever been formal rule, statewide or in any county that I practice in (mostly King and Snohomish, a little Pierce in the past), that required submission of a death certificate to start a probate. So far as I know, this whole issue cropped up maybe 6-8 years ago when suddenly I started hearing from some practitioners in King County about being asked for one. Maybe Snohomish County as well? But I don’t think it was a rule and in my experience it wasn’t coordinated or consistently applied; as I said, I never provided a death certificate for many years, either in prepping docs as a paralegal (since 1994) or as a lawyer (since 2001).

As an evidentiary matter a probate has always required a verified petition, and the petition generally includes a recital that the person died on date X in place Y as a resident of place Z. We are bound by CR 11 to our due diligence plus RPC 3.3(f) heightened duty when presenting ex parte, and the client is signing under penalty of perjury, so that verified petition all by itself is valid evidence of death that the Court is perfectly entitled to accept as sufficient. And I think that, if the Court grants the submitting lawyer the dignity of assuming that they’re meeting their professional diligence requirements, the Court should take the petition as sufficient evidence, and not require a separate declaration or a copy of the death certificate.

I do not think we should be required to interrogate our client, or distrust them, to the point that we must have a death certificate. Especially since they are often delayed these days. Lots of times there is plenty of circumstantial evidence that a death has occurred—obituary or death notice published, or even just contact with multiple family members, or even the client’s say-so coupled with their behavior that is clearly consistent with a genuine loss and a genuine effort to contact other family members and start getting things in order. I don’t think this even requires special inquiry with the client; perfectly routine questions for other purposes, such as costs of disposition and funeral arrangements, can silently also provide sufficient corroborating evidence.

It doesn’t mean that we could never be deceived; but we’re not required to be infallible. Our duty is not to definitively prove that a person is dead; we just have to be confident we’ve met CR 11 and RPC 3.3(f).

Sincerely,

Eric

Eric C. Nelsen

Sayre Law Offices, PLLC

1417 31st Ave South

Seattle WA 98144-3909

206-625-0092

 <mailto:eric at sayrelawoffices.com> eric at sayrelawoffices.com

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From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > On Behalf Of Heather de Vrieze
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2022 10:59 AM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Requirement for Death Cert in Probate

Yes, King County has required proof of death, in the form of an attorney affidavit or death certificate for several years now. I am not aware of any change to that requirement. I generally use the option of an affidavit I sign indicating what my evidence of death is (death certificate, conversation with ME or funeral home, etc.).

Heather

Heather S. de Vrieze
Attorney-at-Law

3909 California Avenue SW

Seattle, WA 98116-3705                          

(206)938-5500 

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From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > On Behalf Of Dalynne Singleton
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2022 10:16 AM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: [WSBAPT] Requirement for Death Cert in Probate

I recently opened a King County probate and the Commissioner returned my papers indicating “he needed proof of death” even though Petition was verified by the mother of the decedent.

So, I prepared a declaration and submitted it with cremation receipt, then the order was signed and Letters issued.

Dalynne Singleton

Gourley Law Group

Snohomish Escrow

The Exchange Connection

1002 10th Street / PO Box 1091

Snohomish, WA 98291

360.568.5065

360.568.1717  fax

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From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > On Behalf Of Tom Westbrook
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2022 10:08 AM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Requirement for Death Cert in Probate

Thanks, Dalynnne. Good info.

Best Regards, Tom 

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
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From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > on behalf of Dalynne Singleton <dalynne at glgmail.com <mailto:dalynne at glgmail.com> >
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2022 8:33:17 AM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: [WSBAPT] Requirement for Death Cert in Probate 

This is true but you do need proof of death which has usually been to provide the death certificate with redacted SSN.  It is a negative rule – most local court rules do not require death certificates to open probate.

But, given the slow nature and difficulty of receiving WA death certificates of late, I now prepare a Declaration and provide the court with proof of death in another way – cremation receipt, funeral home/memorial confirmation/receipt, newspaper or obituary, etc.  If none of those, a Declaration of next of kin as to the death can usually suffice.

Dalynne Singleton

Gourley Law Group

Snohomish Escrow

The Exchange Connection

1002 10th Street / PO Box 1091

Snohomish, WA 98291

360.568.5065

360.568.1717  fax

 <mailto:dalynne at glgmail.com> dalynne at glgmail.com

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As we face the challenges presented by COVID-19, Attorney/client meetings will be handled by teleconference or virtually whenever possible.  Be assured that we will continue to advise & support our clients throughout this health emergency.  If you would like to set a Zoom or telephone conference with me, please call or email my paralegal theresa at glgmail.com <mailto:theresa at glgmail.com> , dara at glgmail.com <mailto:dara at glgmail.com>  or cameron at glgmail.com <mailto:cameron at glgmail.com> . 

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From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > On Behalf Of Tom Westbrook
Sent: Wednesday, February 9, 2022 12:56 PM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: [WSBAPT] Requirement for Death Cert in Probate

Greetings all, it is my understanding that we no longer have a state wide requirement to have a death certificate to open a probate proceeding. Can someone please confirm this and point me in the right direction for authority.

Sincerely,

Tom

Thomas J. Westbrook

Attorney at Law

<<...>> 

324 West Bay Drive NW, Suite 201

Olympia, WA 98502

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