[WSBAPT] Requirement for Death Cert in Probate

Thu Feb 10 12:38:56 PST 2022

Thanks to all of you for the thoughtful and thorough response to my
question. This has been like taking a class in opening probate 101. I
really appreciate all of you.

Sincerely,

Tom

Thomas J. Westbrook

Attorney at Law

324 West Bay Drive NW, Suite 201

Olympia, WA 98502

(360) 866-4000 phone

(360) 866--3832 fax

www.buddbaylaw.com

COVID POLICY:

*Our firm continues to follow guidance from the CDC and Governor Inslee’s
office regarding social distancing and the wearing of face coverings, and
we encourage the public and our clients to do the same.  Our staff is still
working remotely much of the time so electronic communication by phone and
email continues to be encouraged.  We appreciate your patience and
understanding.*

*From:* wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>
*On Behalf Of *Inge Fordham
*Sent:* Thursday, February 10, 2022 11:55 AM
*To:* WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
*Subject:* Re: [WSBAPT] Requirement for Death Cert in Probate

I agree with Eric on the verified petition and our duties as officers of
the court.  Unfortunately, not all courts agree.  I attempted to file a
petition in Pierce County recently where a family needed to commence
probate before the death certificate was issued.  The petition was kicked
back and the Commissioner specifically requested a death certificate.
Different Commissioners may have different standards (at least in Pierce
Co.).  Kind of like filing in the Auditor’s Office…. It really depends on
who you get and their subjective belief as to what evidence is “enough.”
You would think a rule such as this would be uniform (and evidentiary
standards as well) but application and interpretation varies.

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*Inge A. Fordham | Attorney*

Fordham Law, PLLC

3218 Sixth Avenue | Tacoma, WA 98406

Office: (253) 348-2657 | Mobile: (206) 778-3131

www.fordhamlegal.com

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*From: *<wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> on behalf of Eric Nelsen <
eric at sayrelawoffices.com>
*Reply-To: *WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
*Date: *Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 11:48 AM
*To: *WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
*Subject: *Re: [WSBAPT] Requirement for Death Cert in Probate

In King County I have had mixed experience with this, but only recently. I
never had a petition bounced for it until a few years ago. Now, if it’s
Judge Shaffer, my petition gets bounced if I don’t provide separate proof
of death. But I think she is the only one who has done that. I just
re-submit with a declaration that I’m not filing a death cert but I have
other information (contact with or receipt from funeral home, or some other
evidence that the person truly has died) confirming that the person has in
fact died.

On the issue in general, I’m not aware that there has ever been formal
rule, statewide or in any county that I practice in (mostly King and
Snohomish, a little Pierce in the past), that required submission of a
death certificate to start a probate. So far as I know, this whole issue
cropped up maybe 6-8 years ago when suddenly I started hearing from some
practitioners in King County about being asked for one. Maybe Snohomish
County as well? But I don’t think it was a rule and in my experience it
wasn’t coordinated or consistently applied; as I said, I never provided a
death certificate for many years, either in prepping docs as a paralegal
(since 1994) or as a lawyer (since 2001).

As an evidentiary matter a probate has always required a *verified*
petition, and the petition generally includes a recital that the person
died on date X in place Y as a resident of place Z. We are bound by CR 11
to our due diligence plus RPC 3.3(f) heightened duty when presenting ex
parte, and the client is signing under penalty of perjury, so that verified
petition all by itself is valid evidence of death that the Court is
perfectly entitled to accept as sufficient. And I think that, if the Court
grants the submitting lawyer the dignity of assuming that they’re meeting
their professional diligence requirements, the Court should take the
petition as sufficient evidence, and not require a separate declaration or
a copy of the death certificate.

I do not think we should be required to interrogate our client, or distrust
them, to the point that we must have a death certificate. Especially since
they are often delayed these days. Lots of times there is plenty of
circumstantial evidence that a death has occurred—obituary or death notice
published, or even just contact with multiple family members, or even the
client’s say-so coupled with their behavior that is clearly consistent with
a genuine loss and a genuine effort to contact other family members and
start getting things in order. I don’t think this even requires special
inquiry with the client; perfectly routine questions for other purposes,
such as costs of disposition and funeral arrangements, can silently also
provide sufficient corroborating evidence.

It doesn’t mean that we could never be deceived; but we’re not required to
be infallible. Our duty is not to definitively prove that a person is dead;
we just have to be confident we’ve met CR 11 and RPC 3.3(f).

Sincerely,

Eric

Eric C. Nelsen

Sayre Law Offices, PLLC

1417 31st Ave South

Seattle WA 98144-3909

206-625-0092

eric at sayrelawoffices.com

*Covid-19 Update - *All attorneys are working remotely during regular
business hours and are available via email and by phone. Videoconferencing
also is available. Signing of estate planning documents can be completed
and will be handled on a case-by-case basis. Please direct mail and
deliveries to the Seattle office.

*From:* wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>
*On Behalf Of *Heather de Vrieze
*Sent:* Thursday, February 10, 2022 10:59 AM
*To:* WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
*Subject:* Re: [WSBAPT] Requirement for Death Cert in Probate

Yes, King County has required proof of death, in the form of an attorney
affidavit or death certificate for several years now. I am not aware of any
change to that requirement. I generally use the option of an affidavit I
sign indicating what my evidence of death is (death certificate,
conversation with ME or funeral home, etc.).

Heather

Heather S. de Vrieze
*Attorney-at-Law*

3909 California Avenue SW

Seattle, WA 98116-3705

(206)938-5500

heatherd at westseattlelaw.com

www.westseattlelaw.com

*Click here to connect with de Vrieze | Carney on Facebook:   **[image: FB
Logo]* <https://www.facebook.com/DeVriezeCarney>

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*From:* wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>
*On Behalf Of *Dalynne Singleton
*Sent:* Thursday, February 10, 2022 10:16 AM
*To:* WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
*Subject:* [WSBAPT] Requirement for Death Cert in Probate

I recently opened a King County probate and the Commissioner returned my
papers indicating “he needed proof of death” even though Petition was
verified by the mother of the decedent.

So, I prepared a declaration and submitted it with cremation receipt, then
the order was signed and Letters issued.

*Dalynne Singleton*

*Gourley Law Group*

*Snohomish Escrow*

*The Exchange Connection*

1002 10th Street / PO Box 1091

Snohomish, WA 98291

360.568.5065

360.568.1717  fax

*dalynne at glgmail.com <dalynne at glgmail.com>*

*Website:  www.glglawgroup.com <http://www.glglawgroup.com/>*

As we face the challenges presented by COVID-19, Attorney/client meetings
will be handled by teleconference or virtually whenever possible.  Be
assured that we will continue to advise & support our clients throughout
this health emergency.  If you would like to set a Zoom or telephone
conference with me, please call or email my paralegal theresa at glgmail.com,
dara at glgmail.com or cameron at glgmail.com.

*LICENSED** IN WASHINGTON AND OREGON*

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*From:* wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>
*On Behalf Of *Tom Westbrook
*Sent:* Thursday, February 10, 2022 10:08 AM
*To:* WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
*Subject:* Re: [WSBAPT] Requirement for Death Cert in Probate

Thanks, Dalynnne. Good info.

Best Regards, Tom

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
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*From:* wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>
on behalf of Dalynne Singleton <dalynne at glgmail.com>
*Sent:* Thursday, February 10, 2022 8:33:17 AM
*To:* WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
*Subject:* [WSBAPT] Requirement for Death Cert in Probate

This is true but you do need proof of death which has usually been to
provide the death certificate with redacted SSN.  It is a negative rule –
most local court rules do not require death certificates to open probate.

But, given the slow nature and difficulty of receiving WA death
certificates of late, I now prepare a Declaration and provide the court
with proof of death in another way – cremation receipt, funeral
home/memorial confirmation/receipt, newspaper or obituary, etc.  If none of
those, a Declaration of next of kin as to the death can usually suffice.

*Dalynne Singleton*

*Gourley Law Group*

*Snohomish Escrow*

*The Exchange Connection*

1002 10th Street / PO Box 1091

Snohomish, WA 98291

360.568.5065

360.568.1717  fax

*dalynne at glgmail.com <dalynne at glgmail.com>*

*Website:  www.glglawgroup.com <http://www.glglawgroup.com/>*

As we face the challenges presented by COVID-19, Attorney/client meetings
will be handled by teleconference or virtually whenever possible.  Be
assured that we will continue to advise & support our clients throughout
this health emergency.  If you would like to set a Zoom or telephone
conference with me, please call or email my paralegal theresa at glgmail.com,
dara at glgmail.com or cameron at glgmail.com.

*LICENSED** IN WASHINGTON AND OREGON*

IMPORTANT/CONFIDENTIAL: This e-mail message (and any attachments
accompanying it) may contain confidential information, including
information protected by attorney-client privilege. The information is
intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s).  Delivery of this
message to anyone other than the intended recipient(s) is not intended to
waive any privilege or otherwise detract from the confidentiality of the
message.  If you are not the intended recipient, or if this message has
been addressed to you in error, do not read, disclose, reproduce,
distribute, disseminate or otherwise use this transmission, rather, please
promptly notify the sender by reply e-mail, and then destroy all copies of
the message and its attachments, if any.

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*From:* wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>
*On Behalf Of *Tom Westbrook
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 9, 2022 12:56 PM
*To:* WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
*Subject:* [WSBAPT] Requirement for Death Cert in Probate

Greetings all, it is my understanding that we no longer have a state wide
requirement to have a death certificate to open a probate proceeding. Can
someone please confirm this and point me in the right direction for
authority.

Sincerely,

Tom

Thomas J. Westbrook

Attorney at Law

<<...>>

324 West Bay Drive NW, Suite 201

Olympia, WA 98502

(360) 866-4000 phone

(360) 866--3832 fax

www.buddbaylaw.com

COVID POLICY:

*Our firm continues to follow guidance from the CDC and Governor Inslee’s
office regarding social distancing and the wearing of face coverings, and
we encourage the public and our clients to do the same.  Our staff is still
working remotely much of the time so electronic communication by phone and
email continues to be encouraged.  We appreciate your patience and
understanding.*
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