[WSBAPT] Providing Client with word version of draft demand letters/estate planning documents

[nestor at pplsweb.com]

True, they can take the time to copy it, but why should we make the effort simple. Keep in mind that unless deleted Word files maintain properties that show authorship.

 

Nestor Gorfinkel, Attorney at Law

Licensed in Washington & Florida

Florida Civil-Law (International) Notary

 

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From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of David Sweeney
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 3:55 PM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Providing Client with word version of draft demand letters/estate planning documents

 

Actually, now, it’s so easy on the computer to convert from pdf to Word and back, that it doesn’t make the difference it once did. Even a paper only copy can be scanned.

 

David B. Sweeney 
Smith & Zuccarini, P.S. 
2155-112th Avenue NE 
Bellevue, Washington 98004 

Telephone:  425-453-4455 
Direct Line: 425-990-1586 
Facsimile:   425-453-4454 
 <blocked::mailto:D.sweeney at smithzuccarini.com> E-mail:D.sweeney at smithzuccarini.com 
www.smithzuccarini.com <http://www.smithzuccarini.com/>  

 

From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  [mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com] On Behalf Of Nestor Gorfinkel
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 3:32 PM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Providing Client with word version of draft demand letters/estate planning documents

 

Lets look at this logically, why should they be entitled to the word file when they have hardcopies? Not the best analogy, but just becuase you bought the Coca Cola doesn't mean you are entitled to the recipe. 

 

 

Nestor Gorfinkel, Esq.- Sent from my Samsung Device

 

-------- Original message --------

From: Karl Flaccus <Karl at flaccuslaw.com <mailto:Karl at flaccuslaw.com> > 

Date: 9/19/19 15:26 (GMT-05:00) 

To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com> > 

Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Providing Client with word version of draft demand letters/estate planning documents 

 

Good point.  Also, even if that were the Bar’s position, one might have higher standards than the Bar in protecting the integrity of the law by not turning over Word documents.  As the RPCs state: “Each lawyer must find within his or her own conscience the touchstone against which to test the extent to which his or her actions should rise above the minimum standards.”

 

I say, depending on the circumstances, one may rise to a high ethical standard in refusing to provide underlying Word versions of hard copies already provided. 

 

Karl

 

FLACCUS LAW

7010 35th Ave. N.E.

Seattle, Washington  98115

206 523-0297

 

Information in this e-mail message is privileged, confidential, and intended only for the use of the recipient named. If you received this in error, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited – please notify us by telephone immediately at (206) 523-0297, and delete the original message. Thank you.

 

From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > On Behalf Of Martin
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 8:43 AM
To: 'WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv' <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Providing Client with word version of draft demand letters/estate planning documents

 

Perhaps one should make sure the bar gave the right answer in the first place?

 

From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  On Behalf Of nestor at pplsweb.com <mailto:nestor at pplsweb.com> 
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 7:41 AM
To: 'WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv' <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Providing Client with word version of draft demand letters/estate planning documents

 

That doesn’t sound right. 

 

 

Nestor Gorfinkel, Attorney at Law

Licensed in Washington & Florida

Florida Civil-Law (International) Notary

 

ATTENTION - This e-mail message and any attachment to this e-mail message may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not review, retransmit, convert to hard copy, copy, use or disseminate this e-mail or any attachments to it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail or by telephone at the phone numbers provided herein and delete this message. Please note that if this e-mail message contains a forwarded message or is a reply to a prior message, some or all of the contents of this message or any attachments may not have been produced by the sender.

 

P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

 

 

 

From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > On Behalf Of Dewey Weddle
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 2:36 PM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Providing Client with word version of draft demand letters/estate planning documents

 

I, too, am shocked at the WSBA's response.  

 

While certainly the client is entitled to receive all of the documents in his or her file, it seems to me that providing hard copies of those documents should be all that is required.  If the client then wants to sit down and create Word documents from those hard copies, that is his or her business.  I never send out Word documents because they can be easily edited and then re-surface somewhere else.

 

Perhaps we should all go back to typewriters.       

 

Best regards, 

 

Dewey ​​

 

Law Office of Dewey W. Weddle, PLLC

909 7th Street

Anacortes, WA 98221

 

Telephone: 360-293-3600 

Fax 360-293-3700 

 

 

  _____  

From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > on behalf of Diane J. Kiepe <DJKiepe at depdslaw.com <mailto:DJKiepe at depdslaw.com> >
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 10:18 AM
To: 'WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv' <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Providing Client with word version of draft demand letters/estate planning documents 

 

Stacey,

 

Thank you for your personal experience.  I am shocked by the bar’s response.

 

 

Diane J. Kiepe

 

Diane J. Kiepe

Douglas Eden

717 W. Sprague Ave.

Suite 1500

Spokane, WA  99201

 <mailto:djkiepe at depdslaw.com> djkiepe at depdslaw.com

509-455-5300

 

 

 

From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > On Behalf Of Stacey Romberg
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 10:12 AM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Providing Client with word version of draft demand letters/estate planning documents

 

Please excuse me, because I have not read this entire thread so I may be saying something repetitive here. 

 

Some years ago, I represented a client who turned out to be one of the most toxic individuals I have ever run across. As we concluded representation, he demanded Word versions of a variety of drafts. I wasn’t sure what to do about that, because they unquestionably were not final work product that I would have felt comfortable sending to another attorney, etc. So I called the WSBA Ethics Line. I was instructed that the work product belonged to the client since he (kind of / sort of) paid for it, and that if the client asked for Word documents – I needed to give it to him. So I provided the client with everything he requested, carefully caveating everything so that it was clear that these documents were drafts in every sense of the word. Since then, I have had this issue come up two or three times, in much less hostile settings. I’ve always complied with the client’s request.

 




Stacey L. Romberg, Attorney at Law
10115 Greenwood Avenue N., PMB #275
Seattle, Washington 98133
Telephone: 206-784-5305
Facsimile: 206-789-8103
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From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > On Behalf Of nestor at pplsweb.com <mailto:nestor at pplsweb.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 8:13 AM
To: 'WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv' <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com> >; 'Jeff Davis' <jeff at bellanddavispllc.com <mailto:jeff at bellanddavispllc.com> >
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Providing Client with word version of draft demand letters/estate planning documents

 

I watermark my drafts with a big red “Draft” and password protect so the watermark cannot be removed.

 

Nestor Gorfinkel, Attorney at Law

Licensed in Washington & Florida

Florida Civil-Law (International) Notary

 

ATTENTION - This e-mail message and any attachment to this e-mail message may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not review, retransmit, convert to hard copy, copy, use or disseminate this e-mail or any attachments to it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail or by telephone at the phone numbers provided herein and delete this message. Please note that if this e-mail message contains a forwarded message or is a reply to a prior message, some or all of the contents of this message or any attachments may not have been produced by the sender.

 

P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

 

 

 

From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>  <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> > On Behalf Of Brent Williams-Ruth
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2019 3:52 PM
To: Jeff Davis <jeff at bellanddavispllc.com <mailto:jeff at bellanddavispllc.com> >; WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <WSBAPT at lists.wsbarppt.com <mailto:WSBAPT at lists.wsbarppt.com> >
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Providing Client with word version of draft demand letters/estate planning documents

 

When I started out on my own, I used to send drafts (even as PDF's) - but as a not-so-young, solo, I was quickly schooled in the ways of the dishonest.

 

As has been previously stated - even with a PDF - your work product may not be safe.  It is expressly written into my fee agreement that I will NOT send draft documents.  If someone wants me to ensure that I collected all of the appropriate information and spellings - I will send an email with just a list of names, addresses, a recitation of their words to me regarding their wishes but not in any usable format or with any of the other "magic" language that makes a Will, POA, Trust, etc. have its power. 

 

If a draft is truly that important - there is a specific extra fee and the cost of printing and mailing.  I have stopped allowing someone the easy way to take my work product.  Now, if they want to try to OCR or just re-type then go ahead. 

Brent Williams-Ruth 
Attorney-At-Law

Law Offices of Brent Williams-Ruth, a division of BWR Consulting, PLLC

Office/Scheduling Phone: (425) 830-5134

Direct Mobile: (206) 889-7919

e-mail <mailto:Brent at Williams-RuthLaw.com>  / website <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.Williams-RuthLaw.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C08fa18ece4494f3ee2d108d73c5d7b82%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637044244535185311&sdata=kafx3%2F%2Bs564Innh7s1mC5VkRTMwOKn3KaluMHfN4zq8%3D&reserved=0>  /  <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fbwrconsults&data=02%7C01%7C%7C08fa18ece4494f3ee2d108d73c5d7b82%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637044244535195322&sdata=rbQRx4hs3h9B1LhKucG2bvD0FoAbjeIhjjtgTho%2BRDo%3D&reserved=0> facebook / 

As of July 1, 2019 - I began operating as the Law Offices of Brent Williams-Ruth a division of BWR Consulting, PLLC. Please note the new points of contact Brent at Williams-RuthLaw.com <mailto:Brent at Williams-RuthLaw.com>  and  <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.Williams-RuthLaw.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C08fa18ece4494f3ee2d108d73c5d7b82%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637044244535205327&sdata=s3EWQRdMsyRzNH9p88CnlHuWmnRZ11PgpgOWEsOxzJs%3D&reserved=0> MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com" claiming to be www.Williams-RuthLaw.com 

 

 

On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 2:01 PM Jeff Davis <jeff at bellanddavispllc.com <mailto:jeff at bellanddavispllc.com> > wrote:

Listmates:

 

Recently I have had different clients request I provide them with a word version of my proposed demand letter, involving an easement issue, and trust agreement, respectively.  They wanted to redraft the letter and the other wanted to add things to the trust.  I declined to provide the word version.  One person got really nasty saying by not doing so violated RPC 1.4.  In all my years I have never allowed a client to draft letters or pleadings that I sign.  Have any of you faced this issue and how have you dealt with it?

 

Jeff Davis

 

W. Jeff Davis, Esq.

BELL & DAVIS PLLC
P.O. Box 510
Sequim WA 98382
Phone No.:(360) 683.1129 
Fax No.: (360) 683.1258 
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