[WSBAPT] UK Citizens w/ US Real Estate

[Katharine P. Bauer]

Gee, this is why I moved to Olympia 20 years ago...life is lovely and I
think it is Thursday?
On Nov 13, 2014 4:25 PM, "Sam Furgason" <sam at furgasons.com> wrote:

> All days are becoming pretty much the same for me, except Sundays (that’s
> when my 86 year old neighbor gets P O’d if I run my lawn mower). I think
> John offices downtown, high in the atmosphere in class A space, so he has
> to pay the Seattle rents, which means he has to work holidays, evenings and
> weekends. In my next life my goal will be to own one or more of those
> buildings. That grass looks awfully green from my perspective.
>
> S
>
>
>
> *From:* wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com [mailto:
> wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com] *On Behalf Of *Roger Hawkes
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 13, 2014 2:21 PM
> *To:* WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv
> *Subject:* Re: [WSBAPT] UK Citizens w/ US Real Estate
>
>
>
> Agreed; but how come you guys are all working on a Holiday!!  You are old
> enough to know better!!
>
>
>
> Roger Hawkes, WSBA # 5173
>
> 19909 Ballinger Way NE
>
> Shoreline, WA 98155
>
> www.hawkeslawfirm.com
>
> 206 367 5000
>
> Fax is 206 367 4005
>
>
>
> *From:* John J. Sullivan [mailto:sullaw at comcast.net <sullaw at comcast.net>]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 11, 2014 10:59 PM
> *To:* WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv
> *Subject:* Re: [WSBAPT] UK Citizens w/ US Real Estate
>
>
>
> A very thorough and wise contribution. Thanks Sam.
>
>
>
> John Sullivan
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Nov 11, 2014, at 10:43 PM, Sam Furgason <sam at furgasons.com> wrote:
>
> Felicia,
>
> First, these people are asking you because you are a lawyer, not just a
> friend. Their questions are about legal matters. If you undertake to give
> them advice, whether directly or through forwarded comments by others, you
> have become their attorney on this matter. I’m sure they may treat this as
> a simple question, but really, casual advice yields casual results. Good
> advice would be to tell them that this is a matter of some complexity, and
> should merit their getting serious advice. I’d hazard a guess that they
> would appreciate and respect such a response.
>
>
>
> No one who has answered has any real idea where this real property is
> located, how large or small your friends’ estate is, what the real property
> is worth, and probably little idea about UK law. And you’re willing to pass
> their lawyer to lawyer suggestions on to your friends for them to make life
> decisions on? I wouldn’t.
>
>
>
> For example, Washington estate tax law looks at the *entire *estate of a
> decedent when determining whether an estate tax is owed. If the entire
> estate exceeds the taxable exemption, then an estate tax is imposed, the
> amount of which is in proportion to the portion of their estate which is
> located in Washington. So if they have property which is deemed located in
> Washington, and one of them dies, then at a minimum a determination will
> have to be made whether that decedent’s entire estate exceeds the
> inflation-adjusted $2,000,000 Washington exemption at the date of death.
> Under British law, the answer to that question could depend on which spouse
> dies, as England does not, to my belief, have community property law.
>
>
>
> They should consider whether it would be advantageous to hold the property
> in an entity which would be deemed intangible personal property, as such
> property is considered located where the owner is domiciled, under
> Washington estate tax law. Also, entitizing the property to make it
> intangible personal property, and then having the first decedent’s portion
> pass to a trust could both reduce the estate tax value of the interest
> passed (assuming it is less than a controlling interest), and remove that
> interest from Washington for Washington estate tax purpose.
>
>
>
> However, what if re-locating the real property, so to speak, to the law of
> the domicile actually creates a disadvantageous death tax situation?
>
>
>
> Another consideration is that the U.S. property of persons who are
> non-resident noncitizens is treated differently from that of residents and
> citizens.
>
>
>
> Then you have to recognize that a U.S. trust must have at least one U.S.
> trustee, in order to avoid certain tax consequences relating to recognition
> of taxable gains. So, if your friends/clients (remember, they are clients
> if you provide them with any legal advice, whether by forwarding answers
> form this list or otherwise) find that using a trust to hold the property
> is advantageous, they will have to consider how to deal with the U.S.
> person issue. [Note to “friends:” I am not your attorney, and if you read
> this I am not offering it as legal or tax advice. I recommend you contact
> legal counsel who can gather all the relevant facts and provide informed
> advice.]
>
>
>
> My suggestion would be that if this seems too complex for you to educate
> yourself on, so that you can give them useful advice, then simply tell them
> this issue involves international complexities and tax issues which they
> should consult with knowledgeable counsel about. Or, you could just as well
> say that you can handle this but you will have to do some research on it,
> and give them your hourly rate, as well as agreeing on an amount they can
> agree to pay before re-evaluating. The lawyers in the big firms charge by
> the hour to educate themselves (or their junior associates) on these
> issues; it is not as though they come out of law school knowing everything.
> They develop expertise by learning while getting paid. If it’s over your
> head, either consult with someone who has expertise, or refer them to some
> such attorney. Who knows? You may become a local expert on this narrow
> field. Of course, that would mean you’d have to become a CLE presenter and
> article writer, etc.
>
>
>
> Those are my thoughts.
>
>
>
> S
>
> Samuel L. Furgason
>
> Samuel L. Furgason, Inc, PS
>
> Law Practice Limited to Existing Clients
>
> 800 Bellevue Way N.E., Suite 400
>
> Bellevue, Washington 98004
>
> MAIL TO:
>
> PO Box 102
>
> Medina, WA 98039-0102
>
> Work:    (425) 649-1122
>
> Cell:       (425) 445-9909
>
> Email: sam at furgasons.com
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* wsbapt-owner at lists.wsbarppt.com [
> mailto:wsbapt-owner at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-owner at lists.wsbarppt.com>] *On
> Behalf Of *Felicia Value, Attorney at Law
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 11, 2014 1:40 PM
> *To:* WSB Listserv
> *Subject:* [WSBAPT] UK Citizens w/ US Real Estate
>
>
>
> Hello Colleagues:
>
>
>
> I have a question on behalf of some friends. They are UK citizens with
> their primary residence in the UK. They own some property in the US that
> they want to leave to their daughter.  Do they need a US Will to do that?  Is
> there some sort of ancillary proceeding that you open in the US to
> administer the property, even if the primary probate proceeding is in the
> UK?  I suppose they could add the daughter to the title as a co-owner with
> right of survivorship, but for exposure reasons I’m never crazy about that
> idea.  Should I tell them to consult US counsel,  or is this really simple
> and can just be dealt with easily in the administration of the UK Will?
>
>
>
> I will forward your responses directly to my friends.  Thanks for any
> thoughts.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Felicia Value
> Attorney at Law
> PO Box 578/116 North Third Street
> La Conner, WA 98257
> (360) 466-2088
> www.skagitprobate.com
>
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