<div dir="ltr"><div><div>Sunil, I don't know, actually. Some rights make sense to me. If you have defined your corporation as one which has complete transparency (as an example), you shouldn't be forced to give information to the government about your customers without their consent or knowledge. If your corporation has no rights, then they have no way to object to this otherwise and their bylaws are just pretty pieces of poetry.<br>
<br>Other rights don't make much sense. Corporations shouldn't be able to vote in elections, for instance. Others I have no idea about.<br><br></div>As an aside, I keep seeing this Hobby Lobby thing being framed as "limiting the reproductive rights of female employees" or something similar like you have done in your post. Is there a right to have your favourite contraceptive be covered on your employer-provided health care plan? You realize that this ruling in no way stops Hobby Lobby's employees from using whatever contraceptives they want to use, right? They just aren't covered. If there is such a thing as a "reproductive right" (and I'm not saying there isn't), they still have it.<br>
<br></div><div></div>Paul<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 8:51 PM, Sunil <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" target="_blank">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div dir="ltr">Scott,<br><br>It's not news that 'person' legally includes corporations. It is new to give corporation the rights the HL decision gives it.<br><br>It isn't surprising that the Roberts court did this. Citizens United gave corporations the right to spend huge amounts of money on elections. It is worth noting that this occurred at the same time that Republican legislatures started attacking public unions, which often serve as political counterweights to corporations. I think HL and CU should both be seen as political decisions more than anything else.<br>
<br>Paul, tell me this; you don't need to be a lawyer to answer it, it's a policy question. One significant reason people form corporations is to limit their personal liability. Say in your example your corporation manufactures an item that causes harm to your customers. They can sue your corporation, but cannot sue you individually, unless certain conditions are met. So you get to keep your house and your bank account.<br>
<br>Why should society now grant your corporation First Amendment rights? You have them individually as a flesh and blood person, along with your assets. Why should your corporation have them too? Why should we choose to extend First Amendment protection to a legal fiction at the cost of the reproductive rights of your women employees? Why should you get two ( or more, if you form more corporations) persons with those rights?<br>
<br>Of course if Obama had gone with single payer instead of the Romney plan, this wouldn't be an issue...<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br><br>Sunil<br></font></span><div class="hm HOEnZb"><br></div><div>
<div class="hm HOEnZb"><hr>From: <a href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:paul.rumelhart@gmail.com" target="_blank">paul.rumelhart@gmail.com</a>; <a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a><br>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 20:28:45 -0600</div><div><div class="h5"><br>CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Corporations and Religious Beliefs<br><br>
<div dir="ltr">Tom writes:<br><I will believe that corporations are people once Texas executes one.><br><br>To which I reply 'Duly Noted Tom'.<br><br>I was just looking now through the Idaho Pend Oreille County Regulations I see that page 7 lists in its introduction: 'The word “person” includes a corporation, partnership, or other entity.'<br>
<br>Read it for yourself and continue to pooh, pooh corporate personhood<br><a href="http://www.pendoreilleco.org/documents/Planning/Development_Regs/BOCC%20Adopted%20Document%2012-19-2013%20%28Repaired%29.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.pendoreilleco.org/documents/Planning/Development_Regs/BOCC%20Adopted%20Document%2012-19-2013%20%28Repaired%29.pdf</a><br>
<br>I'm guessing I could find many more examples of legally binding documents that have similar wording.<br><br><div><hr>Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 16:35:06 -0700<br>From: <a href="mailto:paul.rumelhart@gmail.com" target="_blank">paul.rumelhart@gmail.com</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a><br>CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Corporations and Religious Beliefs<br>
<br><div dir="ltr"><div>It's true that the corporation is a separate entity. What I'm wondering is if that separate entity can legally be considered to have the value that my friend and I put into it's bylaws. It appears that the Supreme Court thinks it does. I can't say I really disagree. I am not a lawyer, though.<br>
<br></div>Paul<br></div><div><br><br><div>On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 2:47 PM, Tom Hansen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><span></span></div><div><div><span></span></div><div><div><span></span></div><div><div>Let me put it to you simply, Mr. Rumelhart . . .</div>
<div><br></div><div>I will believe that corporations are people once Texas executes one.</div><div><br></div><div>In other words, by your own example . . .</div><div><br></div><div>Once you and your friend have incorporated yourselves. The corporation, although it is your (you and your friend) property, it is a separate entity as detailed in your company's "Articles of Incorporation", which is required in becoming a corporation</div>
<div><br></div><div>For example, the Mistra Corporation . . .</div><div><br></div><div><img src="cid:12CA34D7-1602-4134-9D47-9FAAFB3FCCAA" alt="image.png" height="853" width="640"></div><div><br></div><div><img src="cid:D5BE936E-2334-48E7-93C2-1017F248E61B" alt="image.jpeg" height="312" width="640"></div>
<div><br></div><div>Legal actions can be brought against the corporation without listing you or your friend. It is a separate entity.</div><div><br></div><div>Ok?<div><br><br><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</span></div><div><a href="http://www.moscowcares.com/" style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)" target="_blank"><font color="#000000">http://www.MoscowCares.com</font></a></div>
<div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"> </span></div><div><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Tom Hansen</span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Moscow, Idaho</span></div>
</div><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">"There's room at the top they are telling you still.</span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">- John Lennon</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"> </span></div></div></div><div><div><br>On Jul 3, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:paul.rumelhart@gmail.com" target="_blank">paul.rumelhart@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div></div><blockquote><div><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div>So, walk me through this please.<br><br></div>Say I have a close friend and we have strong beliefs on a particular subject. We have an idea for a business, so we incorporate and describe our values on that particular subject in the by-laws of the corporation when we do the paperwork. Is it incorrect to say that the two of us together, as a corporation, can be said to have that particular value? If we then run into a situation where the government is trying to force us to do something that contradicts that value, can we not say that our corporation has a value that the government is trying to infringe upon? <br>
<br></div>Paul<br></div></div><div><br><br><div><div>On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Tom Hansen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><photo.PNG></div><div><div><br><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</span></div><div><a href="http://www.moscowcares.com/" style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)" target="_blank"><font color="#000000">http://www.MoscowCares.com</font></a></div>
<div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"> </span></div><div><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Tom Hansen</span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Moscow, Idaho</span></div>
</div><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">"There's room at the top they are telling you still.</span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></div><div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">- John Lennon</span></div>
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