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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'>Paul wrote: 'I forget that to disagree here is to be demonized.'<br><br>Spot on.<br><br><div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 09:41:10 -0800<br>From: godshatter@yahoo.com<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?<br>To: v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm; scooterd408@hotmail.com; thansen@moscow.com<br>CC: vision2020@moscow.com<br><br><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">You're running your own email server, then? On a domain that you paid for with bitcoins through Tor? It must suck not having a phone and using random pay phones around town to make your calls. Remember to wipe down the receiver and to do a proper surveillance detection run when you are done.<br><br>I have posted before about ways a person can use technology to fight against these privacy concerns. I've discussed VPNs, running ad blockers in non-Microsoft browsers, and running NoScript and why it's a good idea. I don't remember if I have posted about it on the list, but I've also looked at technologies to better control browser cookies and to get more information about certificates than your standard browsers give you. I run Linux in part because it's generally
more secure. Thanks to the NSA revelations, I've also been researching Tor and Freenet. Not sure where you are getting the idea that I am accepting of corporate america's attempts to track me across the web. All part of my "desperate naivete", I suppose. I forget that to disagree here is to be demonized.<br><br>I use yahoo mainly out of inertia. I've had this account for a very long time. I do pop my email down to my desktop at home, which at least limits my exposure time. I do use google+ and youtube. I do so with my eyes wide open. Cigar-chomping CEOs raking in the dough might be your particular boogeyman at the moment, but mine is the overreaching powers of our own government. At least there are laws in place that allow me to sue Google if they do something truly heinous to me. I don't have standing to sue the government over classified data that they will officially deny they even
have, and I won't enjoy being on (yet another) list.<br><br><div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">Paul</div><div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br></div> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Saundra Lund <v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> 'Scott Dredge' <scooterd408@hotmail.com>;
'Paul Rumelhart' <godshatter@yahoo.com>; 'Tom Hansen' <thansen@moscow.com> <br><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b> 'viz' <vision2020@moscow.com> <br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, February 26, 2014 2:15 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [Vision2020] Say What?<br> </font> </div> <div class="ecxy_msg_container"><br><div id="ecxyiv4739305923"><style><!--
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--></style><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923WordSection1"><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Scott responds:</span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">“</span><span style="">Spot on.”</span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">You’re kidding, right? I can almost understand Paul’s desperate naiveté, but not yours.</span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Sure, I can accept that years ago, you believed the Hotmail (Google, Yahoo, Juno, or many others -- pick your fav) hype that they were providing “free” email service in exchange for serving you ads – that would have put you in the vast majority of people who didn’t have a clue, but surely you don’t still believe
that foolishness, do you?</span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">For those who’ve not followed the privacy issues, the <b>reality</b> is that the real cost of free services like Paul’s beloved Google – not to mention the Yahoo he uses – is that you pay for that “free” service with your <b>privacy, and you’re flatly sticking your head in the sand if you believe otherwise</b>.</span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Tom was actually the one who was “spot on,” and I know that really chaps your hide, Scott, but too bad. Statistically, you’re probably a million times more likely to actually be negatively affected by data brokers than you are by the metadata collected by NSA (do
not confuse assertion with any approval on my part of NSA’s activities). I’ve posted before about the stupidity of being hysterical about the NSA crap while remaining stunningly mute about the bigger issue of Big Business’ (including insurance companies) historic repeated, continued, and costly invasions of our privacy that we have absolutely no protection from.</span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">And, if you’re rightly (IMHO) concerned about the metadata NSA is hovering up (which certainly isn’t something to ignore the way you & Paul have lulled yourselves into some ignorant sense of false security with respect to Big Business, including Google, that you are trying to peddle here), then you’re showing your stupidity, as well as how far behind the times you are. It’s data aggregators &
brokers like Acxiom, Experian, Datalogix, ChoicePoint and the like that you should <b>truly</b> fear.</span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Just for giggles, I suggest you both spend some time exploring sites where such data is sold & bought to see what you can find about yourselves, not all of which is accurate (I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt there). From a quick look & with very little money spent, I suspect you’d both feel as though you’d been incredibly violated. And, no – I won’t tell you where to look. Do the legwork yourselves to learn – really learn – about this crap.</span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Or, have you been so paranoid about
the despicable NSA abuses (IMHO) that you’ve completely missed the ball on these things which are far, far more likely to have a real, direct, and negative impact on your lives?</span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Feel free to remain soo two decades ago.</span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Feel free to remain part of the problem rather than part of the solution. It’s just in France, Australia, the UK, Canada, etc. where Google has violated privacy – not here, right? I’ve got some ocean front property just a few miles outside town for sale if you believe that crap </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D;">J</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">But, don’t be stupid enough to try to blame Tom for making the valid – and very obvious to some of us – point when he calls you on your bull crap.</span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Saundra</span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Moscow, ID</span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">I distrust those who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always
coincides with their own desires.</span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">~ Susan B. Anthony</span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923yqt3049861153" id="ecxyiv4739305923yqt26181"><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Scott Dredge<br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 11:49 AM<br clear="none"><b>To:</b> Paul Rumelhart; Tom Hansen<br clear="none"><b>Cc:</b> viz<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [Vision2020] Say What?</span></div></div></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"> </div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style=""><span style="">Spot on.</span></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;" align="center"><span style=""></span><hr id="ecxyiv4739305923stopSpelling" align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style=""><span style="">Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 11:29:50 -0800<br clear="none">From: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br clear="none">Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?<br clear="none">To: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a><br clear="none">CC: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>; <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></span></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">First, I did not claim that I am OK with Google obtaining private and personal information. I merely made a joke.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Second, Google collects information I voluntarily give it, for the most part. Since I run NoScript and don't enable google analytics, they have a tougher time following me around the net. They also provide the ability to delete what data they collect if I wish to do so.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">The NSA, on the other hand, did not get any of my information from me voluntarily. They provide no means of
finding out what information they have collected, or any process by which you can delete it. Furthermore, as an agency of the government, they are only supposed to collect information from me via a warrant and only when they have probable cause to do so, Patriot Act be damned.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Paul</span></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div><div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;background:white;" align="center"><span style=""></span><hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> Tom Hansen <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>><br clear="none"><b>To:</b> Paul Rumelhart <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> <br clear="none"><b>Cc:</b> Scott Dredge <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>>; viz <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>> <br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 11:17 AM<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Say What?</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div><div id="ecxyiv4739305923ecxyiv3312485618"><div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">This comes as no surprise that the same people, here on the Viz, that strongly criticized the NSA's security measures as invasion of privacy . . . applaud a private corporation's ability to obtain private and personal informaton without consent.</span></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.moscowcares.com/"><span style="color:black;">http://www.MoscowCares.com</span></a></span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Tom Hansen</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Moscow, Idaho</span></div></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">"There's room at the top they are telling you still.</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">If you
want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">- John Lennon</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div></div><div id="ecxyiv4739305923ecxyiv3312485618yqt66898"><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><br clear="none">On Feb 25, 2014, at 11:05 AM, Paul Rumelhart <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:</span></div></div><blockquote style=""><div><div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">"Wouldn't
surprise me. Kurzwell is a visionary and is very knowledgeable about where the AI technology is today and can extrapolate where it will be in the future. It will be able to quickly process and comprehend decades of viz2020 archive posts."</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Which leads nicely into the topic of whether or not an AI Google should have rights. I would consider having to comprehend decades of viz2020 archive posts to be a cruel and unusual punishment for a sentient machine.</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Paul</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div><div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;background:white;" align="center"><span style=""></span><hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> Scott Dredge <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>><br clear="none"><b>To:</b> Tom Hansen <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>>; viz <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>> <br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:43 AM<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Say What?</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div><div id="ecxyiv4739305923ecxyiv3312485618"><div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">With context:<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Kurzweil believes that Google will soon "know the answer to your question before you have asked it. It will have read every email you've ever written, every document, every idle thought you've ever tapped into a search-engine box. It will know you better than your intimate partner does. Better, perhaps, than even yourself." <br clear="none"><br clear="none">Wouldn't surprise me. Kurzwell is a visionary and is very knowledgeable about where the AI technology is today and can extrapolate where it will be in the future. It will be able to quickly process and
comprehend decades of viz2020 archive posts.</span></div><div><div id="ecxyiv4739305923ecxyiv3312485618yqtfd67967"><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;background:white;" align="center"><span style=""></span><hr id="ecxyiv4739305923ecxyiv3312485618stopSpelling" align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">From: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a><br clear="none">Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 02:52:31 -0800<br clear="none">To: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br clear="none">Subject: [Vision2020] Say What?</span></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">"It will know you better than your
intimate partner does. Better, perhaps, than even yourself."</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">- Ray Kurzweil on the future of Google, where he serves as director of engineering.</span></div></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">------------------------</span></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">No need to be concerned. Right, V-Peeps?</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">As NSA woukd suggest . . .</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">This
conversation is not being recorded. Just speak loudly, distinctly, and directly to the pencil sharpener.</span></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.moscowcares.com/"><span style="color:black;">http://www.MoscowCares.com</span></a></span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Tom Hansen</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Moscow, Idaho</span></div></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">"There's room at the top they are telling you still.</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">- John Lennon</span></div></div><div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div></div></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><br clear="none">======================================================= List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.fsr.net/">http://www.fsr.net</a> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a> =======================================================</span></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div><div id="ecxyiv4739305923ecxyiv3312485618yqtfd18197"><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">=======================================================<br clear="none">List services made available by First Step Internet,<br clear="none">serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br clear="none"> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.fsr.net/">http://www.fsr.net</a><br clear="none"> mailto:<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br clear="none">=======================================================</span></div></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div class="ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></div> </div></body>
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