<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div id="yiv7937154736"><div><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_29480">"Planting mini files" is kind of a misnomer. They are using a standard feature of almost all browsers that allow for some kind of information to be saved for later use. The most common uses I've seen involve saving login information and site preferences. There are also session cookies which are used to keep track of various things as you traverse a website which are deleted when the browser session ends. This is something websites are meant to be able to use; I see nothing wrong with simple cookie usage. Advertising companies,
though, have abused this scheme to keep information about you between websites by serving cookies from their servers that webpages download as part of their advertising code. I blame both
the advertising companies and the websites that pay for their ads. I also blame the user for not using ad blocking software.</div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_23"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_25" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">The more dangerous thing they are doing (in my opinion) is watching your browser "fingerprint" and attempting to follow you around the web even when you have cookies turned off. Some of this is done with javascript that comes with their ad package, some of it is simply in the headers that are passed when the banner ad is downloaded, alerting the server as to who they think you are. That's why I suggest running NoScript (or an equivalent) and an ad blocking add-on. They can also save
you from malware that various mainstream advertising company's ads have been known to be infected with. You can also download add-ons that will alter the headers that your browser sends to websites, in order to make you better blend in with the crowd instead of sticking out.<br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_32" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_37" clear="none"></div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_34" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">Not being argumentative, just information-sharing.</div><div
id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_49" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_54" clear="none"></div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_51" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">And, yes, you're right. None of this is completely effective, even with advertising companies (let alone against the NSA). But it's still worthwhile. A flimsy lock on your door is better than no lock, and a flimsy lock and a cheap security camera and some cheap motion-detection lights are even better. Why make it easy for them?</div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_60"
style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_65" clear="none"></div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_62" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">For those who care, I run:</div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_67" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_72" clear="none"></div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_69" style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">Firefox</div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_75" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">AdBlock Edge</div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_78" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">NoScript</div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_81" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">Https
Everywhere<br>Perspectives<br>CookieMonster<br><br>At home, when I go to Google or Youtube, I launch a new private window that doesn't save history or cookies. I also do this for Facebook.<br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_40" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_45" clear="none"></div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_42" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">Paul</div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_47" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br clear="none"></div> <div class="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_12" id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_8_1393433240785_13" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"> <div class="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_28132" id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_29483" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div class="yiv7937154736yqt5559630715" id="yiv7937154736yqt41293"><div dir="ltr" id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_29482"> <hr id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_29481" size="1"> <font id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_29484" face="Arial" size="2"> <b id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_34775"><span id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_34774"
style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com><br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> Scott Dredge <scooterd408@hotmail.com> <br clear="none"><b id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_37956"><span id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_37955" style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b> viz <vision2020@moscow.com> <br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, February 26, 2014 11:10 AM<br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] Say What?<br clear="none"> </font> </div> <div class="yiv7937154736y_msg_container" id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_31600"><br clear="none"><div id="yiv7937154736"><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_31599"><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_31598">You do not see absolutely anything wrong with IT companies
that plant mini-files, known as "cookies", that collect information from the hard-drive of your computer?</div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_31601"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_40095">And don't tell us that you do <i>this</i> or you do <i>that</i> or that you use a certain protection system. There is no such thing as an infallible defense system.</div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_37949"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_34763">However, if you, in your world, feel that your system cannot be defeated . . . please continue speaking clearly, distinctly, and directly to the pencil sharpener.</div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_37950"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_34764">I knew I was expecting too much from you, Mr. Dredge.</div><div
id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_34765"><br clear="none"><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_34766"><span style="">Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .</span></div><div><span style=""><br clear="none"></span></div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_34767"><span style="">"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</span></div><div id="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_34768"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.moscowcares.com/" style=""><font color="#000000">http://www.MoscowCares.com</font></a></div><div><span style=""> </span></div><div><div><span style="">Tom Hansen</span></div><div><span style="">Moscow, Idaho</span></div></div><div><span style=""><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span style="">"There's room at the top they are telling you still.</span></div><div><span style="">But first you must learn how to smile as you
kill,</span></div><div><span style="">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div><div><span style=""><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span style="">- John Lennon</span></div><div><span style=""> </span></div></div><div class="yiv7937154736yqt0566640395" id="yiv7937154736yqt50504"><div><br clear="none">On Feb 26, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Scott Dredge <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
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<div dir="ltr"><Do you believe that corporations, like Google, not only invade our
privacy but also share/sell such information with other private
entities?><br clear="none">I'm using the 'free' services of hotmail (or I guess it's now outlook) by composing and sending this email. I wouldn't really call it 'invading my privacy' when they scan it to look for content that they can sell to other companies. It's their business model. I'm well aware of their of their practices. If I want more privacy I'd make my messages more cryptic and use a more reputable service.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><It is a kniwn that email addresses are shared/sold between corporations.
So, why not ither information obtained by Google et al?><br clear="none">Why not? Google isn't bound by the 4th amendment unlike the NSA. If you watch any crime shows, there have been a number perpetrators convicted based on their internet searches of 'rat poison', 'how to cause death without leaving a trace', etc.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I find it ironic that someone like you who posts copious amounts of personal information on an archived forum is cribbing about 'invasion of privacy'. Those who want privacy and anonymity have the option to take that route. Case in point is Dale Courtney (the real one, not the one that you mistook as his identity) who posted some of the most ludicrous things on his <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://right-mind.us/">right-mind.us</a> site before wiping out all traces of it not posting a peep since.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div><hr
id="yiv7937154736stopSpelling">Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?<br clear="none">From: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a><br clear="none">Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 10:31:33 -0800<br clear="none">CC: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>; <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm" target="_blank" href="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm">v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm</a>; <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br clear="none">To: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div>What we
have been discussing, Mr. Dredge.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Please stay on topic.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>When I suggest that you tell it all, inherent in that suggestion, as it relates to the topic at hand (corporate invasion of our privacy) is a simple question . . .</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Do you believe that corporations, like Google, not only invade our privacy but also share/sell such information with other private entities?</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>It is a kniwn that email addresses are shared/sold between corporations. So, why not ither information obtained by Google et al?<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div><span style="">Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .</span></div><div><span style=""><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span style="">"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</span></div><div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank"
href="http://www.moscowcares.com/" style=""><font color="#000000">http://www.MoscowCares.com</font></a></div><div><span style=""> </span></div><div><div><span style="">Tom Hansen</span></div><div><span style="">Moscow, Idaho</span></div></div><div><span style=""><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span style="">"There's room at the top they are telling you still.</span></div><div><span style="">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,</span></div><div><span style="">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div><div><span style=""><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span style="">- John Lennon</span></div><div><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><br clear="none">On Feb 26, 2014, at 10:22 AM, Scott Dredge <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"><br
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<div dir="ltr">Can you be any more vague? Tell it 'all' specifically about 'what'?<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div><hr id="yiv7937154736ecxstopSpelling">Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?<br clear="none">From: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a><br clear="none">Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 10:11:48 -0800<br clear="none">CC: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>; <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm" target="_blank" href="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm">v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm</a>; <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br clear="none">To: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
ymailto="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div><span></span></div><div><div><span></span></div><div><div>All that is asked, Mr. Dredge, is to . . . </div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Tell it ALL!</div><div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.tomandrodna.com/Songs/FirstEdition/Tell_It_All.mp3">http://www.TomandRodna.com/Songs/FirstEdition/Tell_It_All.mp3</a></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>. . . or is that asking too much?</div><div><br clear="none"><div><span style="">Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .</span></div><div><span style=""><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span style="">"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</span></div><div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.moscowcares.com/" style=""><font
color="#000000">http://www.MoscowCares.com</font></a></div><div><span style=""> </span></div><div><div><span style="">Tom Hansen</span></div><div><span style="">Moscow, Idaho</span></div></div><div><span style=""><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span style="">"There's room at the top they are telling you still.</span></div><div><span style="">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,</span></div><div><span style="">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div><div><span style=""><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span style="">- John Lennon</span></div><div><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><br clear="none">On Feb 26, 2014, at 9:54 AM, Scott Dredge <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><blockquote><div>
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<div dir="ltr">Paul wrote: 'I forget that to disagree here is to be demonized.'<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Spot on.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div><hr id="yiv7937154736ecxstopSpelling">Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 09:41:10 -0800<br clear="none">From: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br clear="none">Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?<br clear="none">To: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm" target="_blank" href="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm">v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm</a>; <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>; <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a><br clear="none">CC: <a rel="nofollow"
shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div class="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_28181" style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">You're running your own email server, then? On a domain that you paid for with bitcoins through Tor? It must suck not having a phone and using random pay phones around town to make your calls. Remember to wipe down the receiver and to do a proper surveillance detection run when you are done.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I have posted before about ways a person can use technology to fight against these privacy concerns. I've discussed VPNs, running ad blockers in non-Microsoft browsers, and running NoScript and why it's a good idea. I don't remember if I
have posted
about it on the list, but I've also looked at technologies to better control browser cookies and to get more information about certificates than your standard browsers give you. I run Linux in part because it's generally
more secure. Thanks to the NSA revelations, I've also been researching Tor and Freenet. Not sure where you are getting the idea that I am accepting of corporate america's attempts to track me across the web. All part of my "desperate naivete", I suppose. I forget that to disagree here is to be demonized.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I use yahoo mainly out of inertia. I've had this account for a very long time. I do pop my email down to my desktop at home, which at least limits my exposure time. I do use google+ and youtube. I do so with my eyes wide open. Cigar-chomping CEOs raking in the dough might be your particular boogeyman at the moment, but mine is the overreaching powers of our own government. At least there are laws in place that allow me to sue Google if they do something truly heinous to me. I don't have standing to sue the government over classified data that they will
officially deny they even
have, and I won't enjoy being on (yet another) list.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div class="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_28182" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">Paul</div><div class="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_28183" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br clear="none"></div> <div class="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_28184" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"> <div class="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_28185" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div
dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Saundra Lund <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm" target="_blank" href="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm">v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm</a>><br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> 'Scott Dredge' <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>>;
'Paul Rumelhart' <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>; 'Tom Hansen' <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>> <br clear="none"><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b> 'viz' <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>> <br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, February 26, 2014 2:15 AM<br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [Vision2020] Say What?<br clear="none"> </font> </div> <div class="yiv7937154736ecxy_msg_container"><br clear="none"><div id="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923"><style>#yiv7937154736 --
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#yiv7937154736 </style><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923WordSection1"><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Scott responds:</span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">“</span><span style="">Spot on.”</span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">You’re kidding, right? I can almost understand Paul’s desperate naiveté, but not yours.</span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Sure, I can accept that years ago, you believed the Hotmail (Google, Yahoo, Juno, or many others -- pick your fav) hype that they were providing “free” email service in exchange for serving you ads – that would have put you in the vast
majority of people who didn’t have a clue, but surely you don’t still believe
that foolishness, do you?</span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">For those who’ve not followed the privacy issues, the <b>reality</b> is that the real cost of free services like Paul’s beloved Google – not to mention the Yahoo he uses – is that you pay for that “free” service with your <b>privacy, and you’re flatly sticking your head in the sand if you believe otherwise</b>.</span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Tom was actually the one who was “spot on,” and I know that really chaps your hide, Scott, but too bad. Statistically, you’re probably a million times more likely to actually be negatively affected by
data brokers than you are by the metadata collected by NSA (do
not confuse assertion with any approval on my part of NSA’s activities). I’ve posted before about the stupidity of being hysterical about the NSA crap while remaining stunningly mute about the bigger issue of Big Business’ (including insurance companies) historic repeated, continued, and costly invasions of our privacy that we have absolutely no protection from.</span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">And, if you’re rightly (IMHO) concerned about the metadata NSA is hovering up (which certainly isn’t something to ignore the way you & Paul have lulled yourselves into some ignorant sense of false security with respect to Big Business, including Google, that you are trying to peddle here), then you’re showing your stupidity, as well as how far behind the times you are.
It’s data aggregators &
brokers like Acxiom, Experian, Datalogix, ChoicePoint and the like that you should <b>truly</b> fear.</span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Just for giggles, I suggest you both spend some time exploring sites where such data is sold & bought to see what you can find about yourselves, not all of which is accurate (I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt there). From a quick look & with very little money spent, I suspect you’d both feel as though you’d been incredibly violated. And, no – I won’t tell you where to look. Do the legwork yourselves to learn – really learn – about this crap.</span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;">Or, have you been so paranoid about
the despicable NSA abuses (IMHO) that you’ve completely missed the ball on these things which are far, far more likely to have a real, direct, and negative impact on your lives?</span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Feel free to remain soo two decades ago.</span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Feel free to remain part of the problem rather than part of the solution. It’s just in France, Australia, the UK, Canada, etc. where Google has violated privacy – not here, right? I’ve got some ocean front property just a few miles outside town for sale if you believe that crap </span><span
class="yiv7937154736yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1393433240785_28213" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D;">J</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">But, don’t be stupid enough to try to blame Tom for making the valid – and very obvious to some of us – point when he calls you on your bull crap.</span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Saundra</span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Moscow, ID</span></div><div
class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">I distrust those who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always
coincides with their own desires.</span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">~ Susan B. Anthony</span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923yqt3049861153" id="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923yqt26181"><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>
[<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Scott Dredge<br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 11:49 AM<br clear="none"><b>To:</b> Paul Rumelhart; Tom Hansen<br clear="none"><b>Cc:</b> viz<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [Vision2020] Say What?</span></div></div></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"> </div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style=""><span style="">Spot on.</span></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;" align="center"><span style=""></span><hr id="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923stopSpelling" align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style=""><span style="">Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 11:29:50 -0800<br clear="none">From: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br clear="none">Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?<br clear="none">To: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a><br clear="none">CC: <a rel="nofollow"
shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>; <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></span></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">First, I did not claim that I am OK with Google obtaining private and personal information. I merely made a joke.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Second, Google collects information I voluntarily give it, for the most part. Since I run NoScript and don't enable google analytics, they have a tougher time following me around the net. They also provide the ability to delete what data they collect if I wish to do so.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">The NSA, on the other hand, did not get any of my information from me
voluntarily. They provide no means of
finding out what information they have collected, or any process by which you can delete it. Furthermore, as an agency of the government, they are only supposed to collect information from me via a warrant and only when they have probable cause to do so, Patriot Act be damned.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Paul</span></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div><div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;background:white;" align="center"><span style=""></span><hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;"> Tom Hansen <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>><br clear="none"><b>To:</b> Paul Rumelhart <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> <br clear="none"><b>Cc:</b> Scott Dredge <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>>; viz <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>> <br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 11:17 AM<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Say What?</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"
style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div><div id="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923ecxyiv3312485618"><div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">This comes as no surprise that the same people, here on the Viz, that strongly criticized the NSA's security measures as invasion of privacy . . . applaud a private corporation's ability to obtain private and personal informaton without consent.</span></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</span></div></div><div><div
class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.moscowcares.com/"><span style="color:black;">http://www.MoscowCares.com</span></a></span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Tom Hansen</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Moscow, Idaho</span></div></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">"There's room at the top they are telling you still.</span></div></div><div><div
class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">If you
want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">- John Lennon</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div></div><div id="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923ecxyiv3312485618yqt66898"><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><br clear="none">On Feb 25, 2014, at 11:05 AM, Paul Rumelhart <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:</span></div></div><blockquote style=""><div><div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"
style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">"Wouldn't
surprise me. Kurzwell is a visionary and is very knowledgeable about where the AI technology is today and can extrapolate where it will be in the future. It will be able to quickly process and comprehend decades of viz2020 archive posts."</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Which leads nicely into the topic of whether or not an AI Google should have rights. I would consider having to comprehend decades of viz2020 archive posts to be a cruel and unusual punishment for a sentient machine.</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">Paul</span></div></div><div><div
class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></div></div><div><div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;background:white;" align="center"><span style=""></span><hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> Scott Dredge <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>><br clear="none"><b>To:</b> Tom Hansen <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>>; viz <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>> <br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:43 AM<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Say What?</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div><div id="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923ecxyiv3312485618"><div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">With context:<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Kurzweil believes that Google will soon "know the answer to your question before you have asked it. It will have read every email you've ever written, every document, every idle thought you've ever tapped into a search-engine box. It will know you better than your intimate partner does. Better, perhaps, than even yourself." <br clear="none"><br clear="none">Wouldn't surprise me. Kurzwell is a visionary
and is very knowledgeable about where the AI technology is today and can extrapolate where it will be in the future. It will be able to quickly process and
comprehend decades of viz2020 archive posts.</span></div><div><div id="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923ecxyiv3312485618yqtfd67967"><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="text-align:center;background:white;" align="center"><span style=""></span><hr id="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923ecxyiv3312485618stopSpelling" align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">From: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a><br clear="none">Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 02:52:31 -0800<br clear="none">To: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br clear="none">Subject: [Vision2020] Say What?</span></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal"
style="background:white;"><span style="">"It will know you better than your
intimate partner does. Better, perhaps, than even yourself."</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">- Ray Kurzweil on the future of Google, where he serves as director of engineering.</span></div></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">------------------------</span></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">No need to be concerned. Right, V-Peeps?</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">As NSA woukd suggest . . .</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">
</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">This
conversation is not being recorded. Just speak loudly, distinctly, and directly to the pencil sharpener.</span></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.moscowcares.com/"><span
style="color:black;">http://www.MoscowCares.com</span></a></span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Tom Hansen</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Moscow, Idaho</span></div></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">"There's room at the top they are telling you still.</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,</span></div></div><div><div
class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">- John Lennon</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div></div></div><div class="yiv7937154736ecxyiv4739305923MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""><br clear="none">======================================================= List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.fsr.net/">http://www.fsr.net</a> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
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</div></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>=======================================================</span><br clear="none"><span> List services made available by First Step Internet,</span><br clear="none"><span> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.</span><br clear="none"><span> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.fsr.net/">http://www.fsr.net</a></span><br clear="none"><span> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a></span><br clear="none"><span>=======================================================</span></div></blockquote></div></div><br clear="none"><div class="yiv7937154736yqt0566640395"
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