<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt">They only had to differentiate between a "natural born citizen" and a "citizen at the time the constitution was adopted". I agree with you (praise the gods) that Ted Cruz was not alive at the time the Constitution was adopted. Thus, the second clause is irrelevant to the question of whether or not he is eligible to run for President.<br><br>And, yes, you are right. I am only presuming to understand whey our founding fathers had that second clause in there. Maybe they just liked the way it rolled off their tongues, or maybe it was needed to make the numerology come out right. It did have the effect of letting them not wait 35 years for someone to become eligible to run for President, but maybe that was just a coincidental side-effect.<br><br>So, the question is, what
does "natural born citizen" mean? I gave links to some quotes from legal experts on the subject, and you gave us a particular case where someone was determined to be eligible even though their parents were naturalized and the birth was in the States.<br><br>I still think it's an open question, but I do tend to agree with the idea that if a person was legally a US citizen at the time of their birth (regardless of where their actual birth took place), then they would qualify under the clause "natural born". Obviously, others may disagree.<br><br>Paul<br><div><span><br></span></div><div style="display: block;" class="yahoo_quoted"> <br> <br> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> On Thursday, October
17, 2013 4:43 PM, Chasuk <chasuk@gmail.com> wrote:<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container"><div id="yiv5748742700"><div><div>Whether a potential presidential candidate was literally born overseas is obviously irrelevant, unless we are excluding US citizens born in Hawaii, Guam, and Puerto Rico.</div>
<div class="yiv5748742700gmail_quote">On Oct 18, 2013 8:25 AM, "Scott Dredge" <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"><blockquote class="yiv5748742700gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div class="yiv5748742700yqt5536686440" id="yiv5748742700yqt77327"><div><div dir="ltr">Give it up Tom. John McCain wasn't born overseas, he was born in Panama
and there ain't no sea dividing the land between here and there. If
there is any constitutional question on this, it can easily be answered
by the Supreme Court with a 5-4 decision along party appointment lines.
It's a non-issue because he won't run, won't win the primaries if he
did run, and wouldn't win in a general election. All in all, it's a
moot point with the exception that it shows glaring bias on your part.
Whatever - see what you want to see through your donkey colored glasses.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div><hr>From: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a><br clear="none">Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 16:03:48 -0700<br clear="none">To: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br clear="none">
CC: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br clear="none">Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps . . .<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div><span></span></div><div><div>Sen. Cruz held dual citizenship (Canadian and U.S.) until this past August.</div>
<div><br clear="none"></div><div><span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://m.woai.com/media/podcast-charlie-parker-podcast-SAFNPodcast/82013-cruz-denounces-canadian-citizenship-23605218/">http://m.woai.com/media/podcast-charlie-parker-podcast-SAFNPodcast/82013-cruz-denounces-canadian-citizenship-23605218/</a></span></div>
<div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span>Concerning "natural born" citizenship, our founding fathers, and the U.S. Constitution, Section 1, Article II of the U.S. Constitution (cited earlier) states . . .</span></div>
<div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span>"</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;">No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of this Constitution . . . "</span></div>
<div><br clear="none"></div><div><div>Apparently our founding fathers, judging by this passage, established a difference between a "natural born citizen" and a person with U.S. citizenship.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Furthermore . . .</div>
<div><h2><font size="3"><span style=""><span style="font-weight:normal;">"The House of Representatives Definition of “Natural Born Citizen” = Born of citizen “parents” </span>in the US.<span style="font-weight:normal;">"</span></span></font></h2>
<div></div></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/2011/03/09/the-house-of-representatives-definition-of-natural-born-citizen-born-of-citizen-parents-in-the-us/">http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/2011/03/09/the-house-of-representatives-definition-of-natural-born-citizen-born-of-citizen-parents-in-the-us/</a></span></div>
<div><br clear="none"></div><div>Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</div><div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.moscowcares.com/">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div>
<div> </div><div><div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>"<span style="font-size:medium;">There's room at the top they are telling you still</span><span style="font-size:medium;"> </span></div>
<span style="font-size:medium;">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill </span><br style="font-size:medium;" clear="none"><span style="font-size:medium;">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div><div><font size="3"><span><br clear="none">
</span></font></div><div><font size="3"><span>- John Lennon<br clear="none"></span></font><div> </div></div><div><br clear="none"></div></div><div><br clear="none">On Oct 17, 2013, at 3:34 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none"></div><blockquote><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;">Arnold Schwarzenegger became a naturalized US citizen in 1983. Ted Cruz became a US citizen at the time of his birth. The phrase "natural born" could be construed to mean "became a US citizen at birth". It's definitely not an open-and-shut case, though, because his father was not a US citizen at the time of his birth. Since there is no definition of "natural born" in the Constitution or in the writings of the founding fathers, we may never know without an amendment to the Constitution or a ruling by the Supreme Court. It would be difficult to show standing for Federal court, though, as previous cases against McCain have shown.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">Paul<br clear="none"><div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div style="display:block;"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial"> On Thursday, October 17, 2013 3:06 PM, Tom Hansen <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"> </font> </div> <div><div><div><div><span></span></div>
<div></div></div><div><div>Yes, Mr. Rumelhart.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Sen. Ted Cruz IS a U.S. citizen, a foreign-born U.S. citizen. Just like former California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, who also cannot run for president.</div>
<div><br clear="none"><div>Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</div><div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.moscowcares.com/">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div>
<div> </div><div><div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>"<span style="font-size:medium;">There's room at the top they are telling you still</span><span style="font-size:medium;"> </span></div>
<span style="font-size:medium;">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill </span><br style="font-size:medium;" clear="none"><span style="font-size:medium;">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div>
<div><font size="3"><span><br clear="none"></span></font></div><div><font size="3"><span>- John Lennon<br clear="none"></span></font><div> </div></div><div><br clear="none"></div></div><div><div><br clear="none">On Oct 17, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none"></div><blockquote><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;"><div><span>He was born abroad and his mother was a U.S. citizen at the time. It's my understanding that this makes him a U.S. citizen "at birth" or "by birth". Again, I'm not a legal authority on this issue. It also apparently makes him a Canadian citizen as well, which doesn't factor in unless he's trying to run for Prime Minister.</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;"><br clear="none"><span></span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;">
<span>Again, not a legal scholar, and I've
pretty much reached the end of my knowledge on this subject, such that it is.</span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;">
<br clear="none"><span></span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;"><span>Paul<br clear="none"></span></div>
<div style="display:block;"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial"> On Thursday, October 17, 2013 2:30 PM, Tom Hansen <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
</font> </div> <div><div><div><div>I reiterate, Mr. Rumelhart . . .</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Sen. Cruz is not an "American born overseas". He is/was a Canadian born in Alberta.</div><div><br clear="none">
</div><div>Se. John McCain is an "American born overseas", as he was born in a U.S. Navy hospital in Panama. "American born overseas" qualifies those born in American hospitals overseas as a consideration to the "natural born" requirement of the U.S. Constitution.</div>
<div><br clear="none"></div><div>Otherwise, children of U.S. service members (soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines), born overseas woukd not be considered American citizens.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Ok?<br clear="none">
<br clear="none"><div>Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</div><div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.moscowcares.com/">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div>
<div> </div><div><div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>"<span style="font-size:medium;">There's room at the top they are telling you still</span><span style="font-size:medium;"> </span></div>
<span style="font-size:medium;">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill </span><br style="font-size:medium;" clear="none"><span style="font-size:medium;">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div>
<div><font size="3"><span><br clear="none"></span></font></div><div><font size="3"><span>- John Lennon<br clear="none"></span></font><div> </div></div><div><br clear="none"></div></div><div><div><br clear="none">On Oct 17, 2013, at 2:10 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none"></div><blockquote><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;">Then perhaps you should be having this debate with those "legal scholars" mentioned in the article.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">Paul<br clear="none"><div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div style="display:block;"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;">
<div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial"> On Thursday, October 17, 2013 2:03 PM, Tom Hansen
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"> </font> </div> <div><div><div><div>I simply stated that Sen. Cruz is not eligible to run for President of the United States . . . and supported my statement with the U.S.
Constitution.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div>Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</div><div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.moscowcares.com/">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div>
<div> </div><div><div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>"<span style="font-size:medium;">There's room at the top they are telling you still</span><span style="font-size:medium;"> </span></div>
<span style="font-size:medium;">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill </span><br style="font-size:medium;" clear="none"><span style="font-size:medium;">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div>
<div><font size="3"><span><br clear="none"></span></font></div><div><font size="3"><span>- John Lennon<br clear="none"></span></font><div> </div></div><div><br clear="none"></div></div><div><div><br clear="none">On Oct 17, 2013, at 1:54 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none"></div><blockquote><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;">Are you serious? I suspect you are throwing Obama birther arguments at me as if I was one, which I'm not. You seem to have a very "us/everyone else" view of the cosmos. <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">Just in case you are serious, I've already explained that I am not a legal scholar, but agree that if the general agreement between legal scholars is
that he is eligible, then that seems like the likely answer.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">In answer to your last question, the only thing stopping them is the common sense and good taste of the actual women involved.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">Paul<br clear="none"><div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div style="display:block;"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;">
<div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial"> On Thursday, October 17, 2013 1:43 PM, Wayne Price <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:bear@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:bear@moscow.com">bear@moscow.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
</font> </div> <div><div><div>As a citizen, born of a US parent outside the US, I'd have to say yes he qualifies, and apparently so does Sarah Duggin at Catholic University.<div><span style="font-family:Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:16px;"> It would be reasonable to interpret the Constitution’s natural born citizenship provision to include children born abroad to U.S. citizens, including Senator Cruz, for a number of reasons," she said.</span></div>
<div><font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:16px;"><br clear="none"></span></font></div><div><font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:16px;"><br clear="none">
</span></font></div><div><div><font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="line-height:16px;"><br clear="none"></span></font><div><br clear="none"><div><div>On Oct 17, 2013, at 1:04 PM, Tom Hansen wrote:</div>
<br clear="none"><blockquote></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div>Again, I ask . . .</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><b>Is Sen. Ted Cruz constitutionally eligible to run for President of the United States?</b></div>
<div><br clear="none"></div><div><div>Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</div><div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.moscowcares.com/">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div>
<div> </div><div><div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>"<span style="font-size:medium;">There's room at the top they are telling you still</span><span style="font-size:medium;"> </span></div>
<span style="font-size:medium;">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill </span><br style="font-size:medium;" clear="none"><span style="font-size:medium;">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div>
<div><font size="3"><span><br clear="none"></span></font></div><div><font size="3"><span>- John Lennon<br clear="none"></span></font><div> </div></div><div><br clear="none"></div></div><div><br clear="none">On Oct 17, 2013, at 12:49 PM, Wayne Price <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:bear@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:bear@moscow.com">bear@moscow.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none"></div><blockquote><div>Oh great, suddenly YOU are a birther? *S*<div><br clear="none"></div><div>Why don't you just do what you wanted everyone else to do, suck it up!</div><div><br clear="none"></div>
<div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>
<br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"><div><div>On Oct 17, 2013, at 11:08 AM, Tom Hansen wrote:</div>
<br clear="none"><blockquote></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div><div><div><span></span></div><div></div></div></div><div><div><span></span></div><div></div></div><div><div>Is Sen. Ted Cruz constitutionally eligible to run for President of the United States?</div>
<div><br clear="none"></div><div>-------------------------------------</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Section 1, Article II of the United States Constitution.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articleii">http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articleii</a></span></div>
<div><br clear="none"></div><div><span>"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of
the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States."</span></div>
<div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div>-------------------------------------</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><span>Sen. Ted Cruz's birth certificate shows he was born in Canada in 1970. It was released exclusively to The Dallas Morning News.</span></div>
<div><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div><span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/headlines/20130818-canada-born-ted-cruz-became-a-citizen-of-that-country-as-well-as-u.s..ece?nclick_check=1">http://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/headlines/20130818-canada-born-ted-cruz-became-a-citizen-of-that-country-as-well-as-u.s..ece?nclick_check=1</a></span></div>
<div><span><CRUZ_0819NAT_32638724.JPG></span></div><div>-------------------------------------</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Thoughts?</div><div><br clear="none"><div>Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .</div>
<div><br clear="none"></div><div>"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</div><div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.moscowcares.com/">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div>
<div> </div><div><div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>"<span style="font-size:medium;">There's room at
the top they are telling you still</span><span style="font-size:medium;"> </span></div><span style="font-size:medium;">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill </span><br style="font-size:medium;" clear="none"><span style="font-size:medium;">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div>
<div><font size="3"><span><br clear="none"></span></font></div><div><font size="3"><span>- John Lennon<br clear="none"></span></font><div> </div></div></div>=======================================================<br clear="none">
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