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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'>Donovan - I'd definitely like to hear what you think happened that night based on your understanding of events.<br><br>Anyway, Martin could have gone back to the house where he was staying. He could have called 911 and reported that he was being followed by a crazy person. but he didn't.<br><br>Once the altercation started, should either / both of them over ridden their 'flight or fight' responses? And if so, how, considering this survival response is programmed instinctively by evolution (or alternatively by God).<br><br>If I put myself in Martin's place, I can fully understand him going after Zimmerman (if that happened).<br>If I put myself in Martin's and then in Zimmerman's place, I can fully understand their survival instincts kicking in (if that happened).<br>What doesn't make sense to me at all is Zimmerman pulling his piece and intimidating Martin with it for 45 seconds before intentionally shooting him in the heart and then punching himself in the nose and scratching the back of his head until it bled prior to police arriving on the scene 2 minutes after the shooting (thus I don't believe this happened).<br><br>If I put myself on the jury, I would acquit based on 'self defense' because it makes sense to me that they were engaged in a physical altercation and, after some period of time, Zimmerman drew his weapon and fired. I've seen / heard nothing to indicate that Zimmerman had any intention of killing Martin and it seems to me that the fatal shot through the heart was unaimed and instead was just instinctively 'point and shoot' (in my opinion).<br><br>I simply haven't heard any plausible alternative chain of events that would come anywhere close to 2nd degree murder or manslaughter based on 911 tapes, the recorded duration of the altercation followed by the recorded time of the shot, photographic evidence of injuries to Zimmerman, medical report of Zimmerman taken the morning after the shooting, witness testimony under oath and on the stand, and close proximity and angle of the bullet.<br><br>Now Saudra has pointed out inconsistencies between witness statements / testimonies and inconsistencies in Zimmerman's statement. Fair enough, I don't think it's wise to cherry pick bits and pieces of statements / testimonies that are consistent with self defense and then just completely disregard other parts that consistent with murder. Or vice verse. That's just bias over riding critical thinking. Contrary to Saundra's comments of statements / testimonies / evidence that are 'inconvenient' for my 'narrative', I contend that any / all of this is not inconvenient to me in the least. Once pointed out, it can prompt me to dig further into the available information and evaluate it accordingly. She is right that I'm not fully familiar with all of John Good's statement / testimony as I didn't study it thoroughly as I was citing quotes of his testimony that were listed in the ABC news article I linked to thinking that ABC would not be a news source which would be biased towards a Zimmerman acquittal in a way that reporters for Fox News might be.<br><br>In my opinion, this was a perfect storm of events that led to a tragedy and I understand the many frustrations associated with conceal carry, etc. If Zimmerman was not packing heat, I feel that the police (who were already en route due to his 4+ minute call to them prior to the shooting) would have arrived within 2 minutes and would have broken up the altercation. There would have been no major injuries and no death. But c'est la vie and c'est la mort. Apparently no laws that could be proven beyond reasonable doubt were broken by Zimmerman according to Florida statues and thus there is no justice for Trayvon Martin and his family. And despite this, there appears likely there will be no changes to any laws anywhere in the country based on this case.<br><br>-Scott<br><br><div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 13:18:52 -0700<br>From: donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Zimmerman Verdict Does Not Alter Truth<br>To: scooterd408@hotmail.com; godshatter@yahoo.com<br>CC: vision2020@moscow.com<br><br><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><div><span>Paul and Scott,</span></div><div><span></span> </div><div><span>Besides not leaving his house, what could Trevor Martin have done differently to avoid getting into an altercation with George Zimmerman? </span></div><div><span></span> </div><div><span>Donovan J. Arnold</span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"> <div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <div class="hr" style="padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);height:0px;line-height:0;font-size:0px;"></div> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Scott Dredge <scooterd408@hotmail.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> Paul Rumelhart <godshatter@yahoo.com> <br><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b> viz <vision2020@moscow.com> <br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, October 5, 2013 8:44 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] Zimmerman Verdict Does Not Alter Truth<br> </font> </div> <div class="ecxy_msg_container"><br><div id="ecxyiv8717025754"><style><!--
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--></style><div><div dir="ltr">Bias is all that you get Paul. <span><span><span>Everyone is too distracted trying to make this case a shining example of their point
of view about 'stand your ground', gun control or gun rights, racial
prejudice and profiling, hundreds of years of racial injustice in the South, etc., that they don't care anymore
what the facts really are or the conduct that the laws actually address.</span></span></span><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div><div class="ecxyiv8717025754yqt9399857315" id="ecxyiv8717025754yqtfd56830"><div class="hr" style="padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);height:0px;line-height:0;font-size:0px;"></div>Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 11:16:17 -0700<br clear="none">From: godshatter@yahoo.com<br clear="none">To: scooterd408@hotmail.com<br clear="none">CC: vision2020@moscow.com<br clear="none">Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Zimmerman Verdict Does Not Alter Truth<br clear="none"><br clear="none">
<div class="ecxyiv8717025754ecxmoz-cite-prefix">Really? A plastic bag wrapped around
his left hand is the evidence that convinces the world that George
Zimmerman "followed Trayvon Martin, stalked him, and shot him
before Trayvon Martin even had a chance to drop his skittles and
Arizona Tea to raise his hands in defense"?<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Clearly, it's impossible to fight someone with a plastic bag,
which may even be empty given the quality of the picture, wrapped
around your left hand. What did Zimmerman do, grab Martin's right
hand and beat his own nose with it after he had killed him? Did
he quickly smash the back of his head into the ground before the
cops arrived? He would have had to do it quickly, because he was
personally leading them to the scene. Perhaps he paid that
witness to say that they were on the ground, one on top of the
other.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
"Because he is too clearly psychologically unfit..."<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
"...because of his zeal for excessive violence"<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
"...so he can be an important defender of future shooters who
heroically cut down potential black criminals"<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
"George has demanded the return of his gun, so that he can wave it
in front of Tea Bagger crowds and let people touch the relic that
saved Florida from one more young black man."<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Glad there's no bias in that article.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Paul<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
On 10/05/2013 12:51 AM, Scott Dredge wrote:<br clear="none">
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<div dir="ltr">Hey all,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I got the below linked article from one of my more liberal
friends who was pointed to it by lesbian author Justine Saracen.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<span class="ecxyiv8717025754ecxuserContent"><span class="ecxyiv8717025754ecxtext_exposed_show">It's
very well written and goes into parallels of the Martin
killing and and the notorious murder of Emmitt Till in the
Deep South in 1955 where the acquitted killers subsequently
gave an interview to Look magazine bragging about the
killing and mutilation knowing that they were
constitutionally protected by 'double jeopardy' from any
further prosecution attempts.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
WARNING that there is a picture of deceased Trayvon Martin
at the scene of the crime and there is a graphic picture of
a horrifically beaten Emmitt Till.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
From the article:<br clear="none">
'I</span></span><span class="ecxyiv8717025754ecxuserContent"><span class="ecxyiv8717025754ecxtext_exposed_show">t was the picture that convinced
me.</span></span> I believe in our legal system and its
processes. I understand the concept that a defendant is
innocent until proven guilty. I understand that what trials do
is very different from what public opinion does, and from what
reality is. Trials determine legal guilt or innocence. They do
not determine reality.<span class="ecxyiv8717025754ecxuserContent"><span class="ecxyiv8717025754ecxtext_exposed_show"></span></span><span class="ecxyiv8717025754ecxuserContent"><span class="ecxyiv8717025754ecxtext_exposed_show">'<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<a href="http://www.laprogressive.com/zimmerman-verdict-truth/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">http://www.laprogressive.com/zimmerman-verdict-truth/</a><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
-Scott<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</span></span> </div>
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