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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'><However, I am criticizing a law which gifts anyone with a virtually unassailable defense for murder.><br>I agree with you on that one Chas. I think there should have been some criminal penalty somewhere in the law, but circumstances being what they were, Zimmerman had a legal carry permit and the law on the books allowed him the claim self-defense thereby trumping 2nd degree murder and manslaughter. Unfortunately the Florida laws apparently don't give any consideration to provocation. It's kind of like in the NFL when some guy clocks an opposing player and the guy who was originally hit gets flagged for retaliation. I'm not trying to make a joke here, but it is a somewhat analagous situation. Maybe that's one change to law that can be made. No self defense allowed for provoking your attacker to attack. My guess is that they'll be no change in the Florida laws. This story has already lost a fair amount of steam.<br><br><div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 07:25:10 +0900<br>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Idaho 'Stand Your Ground' Law<br>From: chasuk@gmail.com<br>To: scooterd408@hotmail.com<br>CC: vision2020@moscow.com; godshatter@yahoo.com<br><br>Right. And as far as the eyewitness or we know, Martin's attack on Zimmerman was the penultimate event in a series of events in which Martin ultimately lost his life. Maybe this was Martin standing his ground. Only Zimmerman knows for sure.<BR>
I'm not criticizing the decision of the jury, nor am I questioning the truthfulness of Zimmerman or the eyewitness. It would be fruitless for me to do so; I will never know with certainty what happened that night. However, I am criticizing a law which gifts anyone with a virtually unassailable defense for murder.<BR>
<div class="ecxgmail_quote">On Oct 2, 2013 6:59 AM, "Scott Dredge" <<a href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="ecxquote" style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div><div dir="ltr">There was one eyewitness to the events. The prosecution put him on the stand. He testified that Trayvon Martin was on top of George Zimmerman beating him. If you think eyewitness testimony is faulty, then so be it, but if the prosecutions puts up a witness that testifies to seeing something that the defense claims happens, it's ludicrous to the think that the jury would go to deliberation making up their own version of events such that Martin was on the ground reigning blows on Zimmerman while Zimmerman stood over him. You don't just pull stories out of your ass that aren't put forth by either the prosecution or the defense, you go with the one they both agree upon.<br>
<br><div>> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 06:35:36 +0900<br>> From: <a href="mailto:chasuk@gmail.com" target="_blank">chasuk@gmail.com</a><br>> To: <a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br>
> CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><div class="ecxelided-text"><br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Idaho 'Stand Your Ground' Law<br>> <br>> There were no eyewitnesses, nor any CCTV footage. This means that we<br>
> have only Zimmerman's account of events, and only by virtue of having<br>> survived. All I know is that if I had been trailed by someone unknown<br>> in the dark, I might have perceived it as a threat, and I might have<br>
> responded preemptively by killing Zimmerman. Who knows, I might have<br>> been able to convince a jury that I was merely "standing my ground."<br>> Maybe I would have been telling the truth.<br>> <br>
> On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 5:20 AM, Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>> > I had found that already, but thank you anyway. I was looking for the text<br>
> > of the 2006 law. I found it here:<br>> > <a href="http://legislature.idaho.gov/legislation/2006/S1441.html" target="_blank">http://legislature.idaho.gov/legislation/2006/S1441.html</a><br>> ><br>> > This law it appears makes a person who defended themselves in accordance<br>
> > with the section you posted and couple of others immune from civil action<br>> > for the same offense. If I'm reading it correctly.<br>> ><br>> > Here is the statement of purpose copied from the bill:<br>
> ><br>> > STATEMENT OF PURPOSE<br>> ><br>> > RS 16170<br>> ><br>> > The purpose of this legislation is to give a person immunity from<br>
> > civil action for using force to defend his life, family or<br>> > property from those who would seek to harm them or for coming to<br>> > the aid of another who is threatened. This in no way is intended<br>
> > to apply to if such force is used against law enforcement<br>> > officers. It would also allow award of reasonable attorney's<br>> > fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income and all<br>
> > expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of civil action if<br>> > the court finds that the defendant is immune from such an action.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > Paul<br>> ><br>> ><br>
> ><br>> > ________________________________<br>> > From: Tom Hansen <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>><br>> > To: Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>><br>
> > Cc: Scott Dredge <<a href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>>; viz <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>;<br>> > Sunil <<a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" target="_blank">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>><br>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 1:08 PM<br>> ><br>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Idaho 'Stand Your Ground' Law<br>> ><br>> > Courtesy of Title 18 (Crimes and Punishments), Chapter 40 (Homicides),<br>
> > Section 18-4009 (Justifiable Homicide By Any Person) of the Idaho Statutes<br>> > at:<br>> ><br>> > <a href="http://legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/Title18/T18CH40SECT18-4009.htm" target="_blank">http://legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/Title18/T18CH40SECT18-4009.htm</a><br>
> ><br>> > ---------------------------------<br>> > TITLE 18<br>> > CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS<br>> > CHAPTER 40<br>> > HOMICIDE<br>> > 18-4009. JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE BY ANY PERSON. Homicide is also justifiable<br>
> > when committed by any person in either of the following cases:<br>> ><br>> > 1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony,<br>> > or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,<br>
> ><br>> > 2. When committed in defense of habitation, property or person, against one<br>> > who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a<br>> > felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent,<br>
> > riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the<br>> > purpose of offering violence to any person therein; or,<br>> ><br>> > 3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a wife or<br>
> > husband, parent, child, master, mistress or servant of such person, when<br>> > there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do<br>> > some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being<br>
> > accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was<br>> > made, if he was the assailant or engaged in mortal combat, must really and<br>> > in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the<br>
> > homicide was committed; or,<br>> ><br>> > 4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to<br>> > apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing<br>
> > any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.<br>> ><br>> > ---------------------------------<br>> ><br>> > Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .<br>> ><br>> > "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)<br>
> > <a href="http://www.MoscowCares.com" target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a><br>> ><br>> > Tom Hansen<br>> > Moscow, Idaho<br>> ><br>> > "There's room at the top they are telling you still<br>
> > But first you must learn how to smile as you kill<br>> > If you want to be like the folks on the hill."<br>> ><br>> > - John Lennon<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > On Oct 1, 2013, at 12:46 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>> > I was under the impression that Idaho had a "castle doctrine" law, not a<br>> > "stand your ground" law per se. The difference being that you can stand<br>> > your ground in your home, but not elsewhere. A quick search failed to turn<br>
> > up the text of this law, but it appears to have been passed in 2006.<br>> ><br>> > Paul<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > ________________________________<br>> > From: Scott Dredge <<a href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>><br>
> > To: viz <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>; Sunil <<a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" target="_blank">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>><br>> > Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:24 AM<br>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Idaho 'Stand Your Ground' Law<br>> ><br>> > No takers on Idaho 'stand your ground' jury instructions that I posed below?<br>> > I'm disappointed. It's mighty white of most of you to have concern for<br>
> > Florida's laws and not Idaho's laws on 'stand your ground'. And note that<br>> > Zimmerman's defense invoked 'self defense' and not 'stand your ground'<br>> > probably because Zimmerman wasn't standing. He'd been jumped, was laid out<br>
> > flat with has back on the ground, and being struck repeatedly by Trayvon<br>> > Martin.<br>> ><br>> > Tom Hansen wrote:<br>> > <It's Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law that I furiously believe should be<br>
> > repealed before the next "Trayvon Martin".><br>> > <a href="http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2013-August/092859.html" target="_blank">http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2013-August/092859.html</a><br>
> ><br>> > -Scott<br>> ><br>> > ________________________________<br>> > From: <a href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a><br>> > To: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>; <a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" target="_blank">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a><br>
> > Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2013 12:43:09 -0600<br>> > Subject: [Vision2020] Idaho 'Stand Your Ground' Law<br>> ><br>> > Tom wrote on Fri Jul 19 13:11:26 2013:<br>> > <The way I interpret the Idaho [stand your ground] law is similar to Texas'<br>
> > law, that the perpetrator must be either on your property or attempting to<br>> > enter your property.><br>> ><br>> > This took me a while to get back to and I talked to one of my UI dorm mates<br>
> > who was an Idaho prosecutor for many years. Maybe Sunil who is also a<br>> > former prosecutor can confirm, but this is what I've been informed are the<br>> > current Idaho jury instructions regarding 'stand your ground':<br>
> ><br>> > The jury instruction currently approved by the Idaho Supreme Court, based on<br>> > Idaho's common law, is this: "In the exercise of the right of [self defense]<br>> > [defense of another], one need not retreat. One may stand one's ground and<br>
> > defend [oneself] [the other person] by the use of all force and means which<br>> > would appear to be necessary to a reasonable person in a similar situation<br>> > and with similar knowledge[; and a person may pursue the attacker until [the<br>
> > person] [the other person] has been secured from danger if that course<br>> > likewise appears reasonably necessary]. This law applies even though the<br>> > person being [attacked] [defended] might more easily have gained safety by<br>
> > flight or by withdrawing from the scene."<br>> ><br>> > -Scott<br>> ><br>> > From <a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a> Fri Jul 19 13:11:26 2013<br>
> > Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 13:11:26 -0700<br>> > Subject: [Vision2020] Vision2020 Digest, Vol 85, Issue 95<br>> ><br>> > The way I interpret the Idaho law is similar to Texas' law, that the<br>
> > perpetrator must be either on your property or attempting to enter your<br>> > property.<br>> ><br>> > Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .<br>> ><br>> > "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)<br>
> > <a href="http://www.MoscowCares.com" target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a><br>> ><br>> > Tom Hansen<br>> > Moscow, Idaho<br>> ><br>> > "There's room at the top they are telling you still<br>
> > But first you must learn how to smile as you kill<br>> > If you want to be like the folks on the hill."<br>> ><br>> > - John Lennon<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > On Jul 19, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Dan Carscallen <<a href="mailto:areaman530@gmail.com" target="_blank">areaman530@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>> >> Tom et al,<br>> >><br>> >> While Idaho's law isn't necessarily "stand your ground", I don't think you<br>> >> have to be on your own property, but I believe you *do* have to prove that<br>
> >> you were in imminent danger of losing your life.<br>> >><br>> >> DC<br>> >><br>> >> On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:56, Tom Hansen <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> >><br>> >>> Exactly, Joe.<br>> >>><br>> >>> The state of Florida has become the venue where the shoot-out at the OK<br>> >>> Corral would be considered legal, provided that each side is in fear for<br>
> >>> their lives when they initially meet. There is no requirement for anybody<br>> >>> to seek alternate actions to "ready-aim(optional)-fire".<br>> >>><br>> >>> At least Idaho requires the threat to take place on your property when<br>
> >>> younpull the trigger.<br>> >>><br>> >>> Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .<br>> >>><br>> >>> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)<br>
> >>> <a href="http://www.MoscowCares.com" target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a><br>> >>><br>> >>> Tom Hansen<br>> >>> Moscow, Idaho<br>> >>><br>> >>> "There's room at the top they are telling you still<br>
> >>> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill<br>> >>> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."<br>> >>><br>> >>> - John Lennon<br>> >>><br>
> >>><br>> >>><br>> >>> On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:44 AM, Joe Campbell <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>> >>> wrote:<br>
> >>><br>> >>>> Gary,<br>> >>>><br>> >>>> I don't want to pick on Zimmerman. Other than some superficial<br>> >>>> understanding of the case, I know nothing about Mr. Zimmerman, no reason to<br>
> >>>> think he's racist or whatever. I also think that, were I a juror, I might<br>> >>>> have found him innocent since -- as you note below -- there were no<br>> >>>> eyewitnesses and thus reasonable doubt about his guilt. Again, I have only a<br>
> >>>> superficial understanding of the case.<br>> >>>><br>> >>>> But the real story seems different than the one you tell below and based<br>> >>>> on my understanding of the story I would say it sounds as if Mr. Zimmerman<br>
> >>>> is guilty of negligence leading to the death of a young man, at the very<br>> >>>> least. Again, given the stand-your-ground law it is unlikely he can be<br>> >>>> charged with anything.<br>
> >>>><br>> >>>> But that is what is so disturbing to me about the case. Likely Zimmerman<br>> >>>> violated no laws. Maybe Zimmerman is not a racist but of course there are a<br>
> >>>> lot of racists. Maybe he didn't think Martin was suspicious because he was<br>> >>>> black but if you listen to the black men talking to Chris Matthews about<br>> >>>> their experiences in the link I posted yesterday stories of black men being<br>
> >>>> suspected of wrongdoing merely because they are black are all too common.<br>> >>>><br>> >>>><br>> >>>> <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/19/chris-matthews-apologizes-black-colleagues-behalf-white-people_n_3622703.html" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/19/chris-matthews-apologizes-black-colleagues-behalf-white-people_n_3622703.html</a><br>
> >>>><br>> >>>><br>> >>>> So here is the situation we have now, given the Zimmerman result. A<br>> >>>> white man in Florida, armed with a gun, can get into a car and follow any<br>
> >>>> black kid he wants. If the black kid objects in a threatening way he can<br>> >>>> shoot and kill him. Your tendency to disagree with anything that<br>> >>>> progressives and liberals say must be pretty strong for you to look at this<br>
> >>>> story and not think that something is seriously wrong. Zimmerman is guilty<br>> >>>> of something, maybe not in the eyes of crazy Florida law but at least in<br>> >>>> some common sense moral way.<br>
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