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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'>Tom - yes - I can substantiate my claims and further I can debunk yours. You post a snip about audio experts and then curiously neglect to mention that audio experts did not testify at the trial. The jurors listened to the 911 calls and they heard cries for help. <b>The prosecution puts up a witness that testifies that Martin is top of Zimmerman beating him and that "The person on the bottom, I could hear a 'Help,'" he said.</b> The prosecution put two witnesses up on the stand that claimed Martin was beating Zimmerman. How you and Saundra and anyone else can be in denial regarding this is beyond reason. The prosecutions version of the story is that Martin was beating Zimmerman and here is the link:<br><a href="http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-beaten-prosecution-witnesses/story?id=19517236" target="_blank">http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-beaten-prosecution-witnesses/story?id=19517236</a><br><br>You then further claim 'The minor abrasion on the back of Zimmerman's head which did not require any immediate attention' and from the same link above <b>'Stacy Livingston, an EMT who arrived on the scene, said she treated
Zimmerman</b> -- who was complaining of dizziness -- for five minutes before
releasing him into police custody.' And the purpose of your claim is what? That Zimmerman wasn't beaten badly enough and that he should have had worse injuries to justify any beating? The judge should have instructed the jury to ignore photographic of injuries to Zimmerman, ignore the testimony of the EMT who treated him at the scene, ignore the medical report taken the morning after the shooting, ignore eyewitness testimony that he was being beaten and yelling 'Help'?<br><br>You make a claim that 'Zimmerman was not anywhere for medical aid for FOUR DAYS following the incident.' Really? An EMT testifying that she treated Zimmerman at the scene doesn't count. And Zimmerman's doctor who examined him the morning after the shooting doesn't count either?<br><br>Given all of the available 911 evidence and witness testimony, how do you come anywhere close to meeting burden of proof for 2nd degree murder or manslaughter against self-defense? It can't be done. This is why the police didn't arrest him to begin with. It wasn't because they were racist as much as you racists who are continuously playing the race card want to believe the worst in everyone. They didn't arrest him because they couldn't find any law that he broke. Likewise the jury acquitted because they too couldn't find any law that he broke.<br><br>-Scott<br><br><br><div><hr id="stopSpelling">CC: donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com; vision2020@moscow.com; sunilramalingam@hotmail.com<br>From: thansen@moscow.com<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Idaho 'Stand Your Ground' Law<br>Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 16:28:35 -0700<br>To: scooterd408@hotmail.com<br><br><div style=""><span></span></div><div><div style="">Courtesy of CNN at:</div><div style=""><br></div><div><span style=""><a href="http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/23/justice/florida-zimmerman-timeline/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/23/justice/florida-zimmerman-timeline/index.html</a></span></div><div style=""><br></div><div style="">---------------------------------</div><div style=""><br></div><div style=""><span style="background-color:rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><strong style="padding:0px;">April 2:</strong> Audio experts tell CNN that they don't believe it's Zimmerman who can be heard yelling "Help!" in the background of a 911 call. They compare those screams with Zimmerman's voice, as recorded in a 911 call he made minutes earlier describing a "suspicious" black male, who ended up being Martin.</span></div><div style=""><br></div><div style="">---------------------------------</div><div style=""><br></div><div style="">I will continue to research my claims and provide sources of my research here on the Viz. However, records have become mire difficult to locate over time.</div><div style=""><br><div>Mr. Dredge: Have yoy identified any resources to substantiate your claims? If so, it would certainly help. Thanks.</div><div><br></div><div>Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .</div><div><br></div><div>"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</div><div><a href="http://www.MoscowCares.com" target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div><div> </div><div><div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div><br></div><div>"<span style="font-size:medium;">There's room at the top they are telling you still</span><span style="font-size:medium;"> </span></div><span style="font-size:medium;">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill </span><br style="font-size:medium;"><span style="font-size:medium;">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div><div><font size="3"><span style=""><br></span></font></div><div><font size="3"><span style="">- John Lennon<br></span></font><div> </div></div><div><br></div></div><div style=""><br>On Oct 1, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Scott Dredge <<a href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote style=""><div>
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<div dir="ltr">Tom - the worst source of information - writes:<br><Zimmerman was not anywhere for medical aid for FOUR DAYS following the incident.><br>Horseshit - the medical report was written up the morning after the shooting<br><br><The minor abrasion on the back of Zimmerman's head which did not require any immediate attention.><br>Not 'abrasion'. Two lacerations or two 'cuts' if you want to further minimize the injuries which you already think are self inflicted anyway within two minute of police arriving on the scene and handcuffing Zimmerman. It would only make sense to the jurors that the cuts were inflicted due to actions from Trayvon Martin either rabbit punching him or knocking his head on the pavement.<br><br><The cries for help which NOBODY had proven from whom (Zimmerman or Martin) they originated.><br>The 911 call recorded the screams for help. The only eye witness testified he heard cries for help and further testified that he thought they were coming from Zimmerman. Once again this was a prosecution witness that is testifying. It's rather ludicrous to think that jurors are going pull a story out of their collective asses based on nothing put forth by the prosecution that Martin was the one screaming for help.<br><br>-Scott<br><br><br><div><hr id="ecxstopSpelling">CC: <a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>; <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>; <a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a><br>From: <a href="mailto:moscowcares@moscow.com">moscowcares@moscow.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Idaho 'Stand Your Ground' Law<br>Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 14:41:49 -0700<br>To: <a href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a><br><br><div>Do you have a source to substantiate these claims, Mr. Dredge.</div><div><br></div><div>My recollection of the evidence/testimony differs considerably, especially considering . . . </div><div><br></div><div>- The cries for help which NOBODY had proven from whom (Zimmerman or Martin) they originated.</div><div><br></div><div>- The minor abrasion on the back of Zimmerman's head which did not require any immediate attention.</div><div><br></div><div>- Zimmerman was not anywhere for medical aid for FOUR DAYS following the incident.</div><div><br></div><div>I will get back with the Viz after I research this once I return from the post office and the Palouse Humane Society.</div><div><br><div>Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .</div><div><br></div><div>"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</div><div><a href="http://www.MoscowCares.com" target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div><div> </div><div><div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div><br></div><div>"<span style="font-size:medium;">There's room at the top they are telling you still</span><span style="font-size:medium;"> </span></div><span style="font-size:medium;">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill </span><br style="font-size:medium;"><span style="font-size:medium;">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div><div><font size="3"><span style=""><br></span></font></div><div><font size="3"><span style="">- John Lennon<br></span></font><div> </div></div><div><br></div></div><div><br>On Oct 1, 2013, at 2:29 PM, Scott Dredge <<a href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div>
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<div dir="ltr"><ol><li>Recorded / timestamped 911 calls with Zimmerman screaming for help for 45 seconds prior the recorded sound of the gunshot.</li><li>Pictures taken at the scene by police who arrived within 2 minutes of the shooting showing Zimmerman with a bloody and swollen nose.</li><li>Pictures taken at the police station showing Zimmerman with the back of his head cut and bleeding.</li><li>Zimmerman's medical report written up the morning after the shooting documenting multiple injuries including a broken nose</li><li>Witness for the PROSECUTION PROSECUTION PROSECUTION (I can't emphasize this enough) testifying that Zimmerman was on the ground and that Trayvon Martin was on top of him beating him.</li></ol><br><br>If you have any other evidence or witness testimony to refute any of the above, please present it. And to reiterate, Zimmerman's defense did not invoke 'Stand your ground' because it wasn't necessary.<br><br><br>-Scott<br><br><br><div><hr id="ecxstopSpelling">Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 12:00:38 -0700<br>From: <a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Idaho 'Stand Your Ground' Law<br>To: <a href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>; <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>; <a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a><br><br><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><div><span></span></div><div> "He'd been jumped, was laid out flat with has back on the ground, and being struck repeatedly by Trayvon Martin." And you know this to be fact, how?</div><div> </div><div>Donovan J. Arnold<br></div> <div style="font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"> <div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <div class="hr" style="padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);height:0px;line-height:0;font-size:0px;"></div> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Scott Dredge <<a href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> viz <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>; Sunil
<<a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>> <br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:24 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] Idaho 'Stand Your Ground' Law<br> </font> </div> <div class="ecxy_msg_container"><br><div id="ecxyiv3034217112"><style><!--
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--></style><div><div dir="ltr">No takers on Idaho 'stand your ground' jury instructions that I posed below? I'm disappointed. It's mighty white of most of you to have concern for Florida's laws and not Idaho's laws on 'stand your ground'. And note that Zimmerman's defense invoked 'self defense' and not 'stand your ground' probably because Zimmerman wasn't standing. He'd been jumped, was laid out flat with has back on the ground, and being struck repeatedly by Trayvon Martin.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Tom Hansen wrote:<br clear="none"><It's Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law that I furiously believe should be repealed before the next "Trayvon Martin".><br clear="none"><a href="http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2013-August/092859.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2013-August/092859.html</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none">-Scott<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div><div class="hr" style="padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);height:0px;line-height:0;font-size:0px;"></div>From: <a href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a><br clear="none">To: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>; <a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a><br clear="none">Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2013 12:43:09 -0600<br clear="none">Subject: [Vision2020] Idaho 'Stand Your Ground' Law<br clear="none"><br clear="none">
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Tom wrote on </span></span></span>Fri Jul 19 13:11:26 2013:<br clear="none"><span><span><span><The way I interpret the Idaho [stand your ground] law is similar to Texas' law, that the
perpetrator must be either on your property or attempting to enter your
property.><br clear="none"><br clear="none">This took me a while to get back to and I talked to one of my UI dorm mates who was an Idaho prosecutor for many years. Maybe Sunil who is also a former prosecutor can confirm, but this is what I've been informed are the current Idaho jury instructions regarding 'stand your ground':<br clear="none"><br clear="none">The jury instruction currently approved by the Idaho Supreme Court,
based on Idaho's common law, is this: "In the exercise of the right of
[self defense] [defense of another], one need not retreat. One may
stand one's ground and defend [oneself] [the other person] by the use of
all force and means which would appear to be necessary to a reasonable
person in a similar situation and with similar knowledge[; and a person
may pursue the attacker until [the person] [the other person] has been
secured from danger if that course likewise appears reasonably
necessary]. This law applies even though the person being [attacked]
[defended] might more easily have gained safety by flight or by
withdrawing from the scene."</span></span></span><br clear="none"><br clear="none">-Scott<br clear="none"><br clear="none">From <a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a> Fri Jul 19 13:11:26 2013<br clear="none">Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 13:11:26 -0700<br clear="none">Subject: [Vision2020] Vision2020 Digest, Vol 85, Issue 95<br clear="none"><br clear="none">The way I interpret the Idaho law is similar to Texas' law, that the perpetrator must be either on your property or attempting to enter your property.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .<br clear="none"><br clear="none">"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)<br clear="none"><a href="http://www.MoscowCares.com" target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none">Tom Hansen<br clear="none">Moscow, Idaho<br clear="none"><br clear="none">"There's room at the top they are telling you still <br clear="none">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill <br clear="none">If you want to
be like the folks on the hill."<br clear="none"><br clear="none">- John Lennon<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">On Jul 19, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Dan Carscallen <<a href="mailto:areaman530@gmail.com">areaman530@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"><br clear="none">> Tom et al,<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> While Idaho's law isn't necessarily "stand your ground", I don't think you have to be on your own property, but I believe you *do* have to prove that you were in imminent danger of losing your life. <br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> DC<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">> On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:56, Tom Hansen <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">> <br clear="none">>> Exactly, Joe.<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> The state of Florida has become the venue where the shoot-out at the OK Corral would be considered legal, provided that each side is in fear for their lives when they
initially meet. There is no requirement for anybody to seek alternate actions to "ready-aim(optional)-fire".<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> At least Idaho requires the threat to take place on your property when younpull the trigger.<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)<br clear="none">>> <a href="http://www.MoscowCares.com" target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a><br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> Tom Hansen<br clear="none">>> Moscow, Idaho<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> "There's room at the top they are telling you still <br clear="none">>> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill <br clear="none">>> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> - John Lennon<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>> On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:44 AM, Joe Campbell <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">>> <br clear="none">>>> Gary,<br clear="none">>>> <br clear="none">>>> I don't want to pick on Zimmerman. Other than some superficial understanding of the case, I know nothing about Mr. Zimmerman, no reason to think he's racist or whatever. I also think that, were I a juror, I might have found him innocent since -- as you note below -- there were no eyewitnesses and thus reasonable doubt about his guilt. Again, I have only a superficial understanding of the case.<br clear="none">>>> <br clear="none">>>> But the real story seems different than the one you tell below and based on my understanding of the story I would say it sounds as if Mr. Zimmerman is guilty of negligence leading to the death of a
young man, at the very least. Again, given the stand-your-ground law it is unlikely he can be charged with anything.<br clear="none">>>> <br clear="none">>>> But that is what is so disturbing to me about the case. Likely Zimmerman violated no laws. Maybe Zimmerman is not a racist but of course there are a lot of racists. Maybe he didn't think Martin was suspicious because he was black but if you listen to the black men talking to Chris Matthews about their experiences in the link I posted yesterday stories of black men being suspected of wrongdoing merely because they are black are all too common. <br clear="none">>>> <br clear="none">>>> <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/19/chris-matthews-apologizes-black-colleagues-behalf-white-people_n_3622703.html" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/19/chris-matthews-apologizes-black-colleagues-behalf-white-people_n_3622703.html</a><br clear="none">>>> <br clear="none">>>> <br clear="none">>>> So here is the situation we have now, given the Zimmerman result. A white
man in Florida, armed with a gun, can get into a car and follow any black kid he wants. If the black kid objects in a threatening way he can shoot and kill him. Your tendency to disagree with anything that progressives and liberals say must be pretty strong for you to look at this story and not think that something is seriously wrong. Zimmerman is guilty of something, maybe not in the eyes of crazy Florida law but at least in some common sense moral way.<br clear="none"> </div></div>
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