<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>I am somewhat of a real skeptic and have studied skepticism for much of my life. I question everything and always have. But skepticism and questioning has never led me to go out the window instead of the door. When considering policy decisions that have a literally global impact, radical skepticism strikes me as irresponsible. At that point we should listen to experts. It is fine if you want to step out the window because you are a gravity skeptic but I'm going to speak up whenever you decide to take the rest of us with you. Sorry.</div><div><br>On Sep 2, 2013, at 11:10 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div><span></span></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
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The experts have been saying that a low fat, restricted calorie
diet high in carbs was best for the last 30 years at least. I'm
skeptical of their claims.<br>
<br>
Anyway, my intention wasn't to derail this thread. I just found
the parallels amusing. Let's make a deal. If you will take note
somewhere in the back of your mind that the climate experts might
be wrong, I'll take note somewhere in the back of my mind that
they might be right. Deal?<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 09/02/2013 09:36 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:<br>
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<div>One difference is you can find many experts on the various
sides of the diet debate. If the experts -- folks with MDs and
PhDs -- said one diet was better than all others, then go on
that diet! But that is not the case. Faulty analogy.</div>
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On Sep 2, 2013, at 8:43 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
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I wanted to reply to this sooner, but I was on vacation.<br>
<br>
Read Gary Taubes book "Good Calories, Bad Calories". Or
search for "gary taubes why we get fat" on YouTube.<br>
<br>
It would appear that the "high fat causes heart attacks"
hypothesis isn't as strong as it was once thought to be.
Research comparing high fat / low carb unlimited food intake
diets vs. the traditional high carb, low fat, restricted
calorie diet consistently shows the high fat low carb diets
allow the subjects to lose more weight and it makes their
cholesterol numbers better. <br>
<br>
Here is an article from the New York Times talking about the
subject:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0">http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0</a><br>
<br>
I chuckle reading this, because there are hallmarks of the
climate science debate here, too. Politics gets involved
and suddenly it hurts your reputation to be skeptical of the
consensus view. Everyone studies the consensus topics, but
nobody researches topics that by their very nature conflict
with the consensus view. That doesn't make either one of
the looked-down-upon topics any more true, but I do find it
amusing to see human nature at work.<br>
<br>
That's not to say that high fat low carb diets are perfect.
I have seen research that shows that if you have a
pre-existing heart condition, then the ketogenic diet might
make it harder to recover in the event of a heart attack.
I've also seen research that suggests that pregnant women
who are obese and on that kind of diet can affect their
babies by making them fatter and have smaller livers. I
look at those risks and compare them to the risks of being
obese, and I side with the diet that will help me lose that
weight the best and that makes my cholesterol numbers better
to boot. I mean, look around. How many really old fat
people do you see? But I admit that it's a complicated area
of study. Certainly, if I ever get pregnant, I'll drop off
the diet for nine months. <br>
<br>
Besides, most of the high fat studies I've run across (I
haven't done an exhaustive search by any means) involve high
fat / high carb diets instead of high fat / low carb diets.
In other words, simply adding fat to the traditional diet
appears to be what is risky. Especially to mice, or
rabbits. Yes, one study showed that eating fat from meat
doesn't sit will with an herbivore's biology.<br>
<br>
I know one data point is just an anecdote, but my appetite
has already returned to normal, I don't fight sleep in the
afternoons, I don't crave ice cream or sweets, I'm not
constantly running to the bathroom, I don't feel the urge to
keep eating when I know I've had enough, and I seem to have
as much energy as I had before and I believe that I'm
thinking clearer. And, my pants are starting to get loose
around the waist.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 08/31/2013 06:43 AM, Art Deco wrote:<br>
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<div>@Paul,<br>
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Do you think that eating a high fat diet for years might
have caused the condition Atkins died of? Perhaps you
should read a little about the long term effects of high
fat diets, those high in "bad" fats like beef fat.<br>
<br>
w.<br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 12:40 AM,
lfalen <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com" target="_blank">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
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<p>Mediterranean may be misleading as one might
think of a lot of pasta. Not the case. The DASH
diet is similar. One should eat whole grains and
a minimum of processed or high carb. foods. The
more color the better (blueberries etc.), eat
legumes and nuts.</p>
<p>Roger<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote style="padding-left:1em;font-family:tahoma,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;margin-left:1em;border-left-color:blue;border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid" dir="LTR">
<hr size="1">
<div>
<div class="h5">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: lfalen <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com" target="_blank">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>><br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>,
"Art Deco" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>>,
"Paul Rumelhart" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Date: 08/30/13 17:58<br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets<br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">
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<p>I would not recommend any of the
diets you mentioned for long term. the
Atkins diet can lead to health
problems in the long term. It is
especially dangerous for any one with
kidney problems. For overall good
heath I would recommend the
Mediterranean Diet or something close
to it. In other words a diet with lots
of variety, high in fruits and
vegetables, vegatable oil such as
Olive, some fish, a small amount of
red meat, and low fat dairy products.</p>
<p>Roger<br>
</p>
<br>
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<hr size="1">-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: "Paul Rumelhart" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>><br>
To: "Art Deco" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>>,
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
Date: 08/30/13 17:02<br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic
diets<br>
<br>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times
new roman,new york,times,serif">I've
seen this claim before. Here is
what snopes says: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp" target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp</a><br>
<br>
When he went in to the hospital
because of head injuries he
sustained from a fall outside of his
clinic on April 8, 2003, he weighed
195 pounds. When he died after
being in a coma 9 days later on
April 17, 2003, he weighed in at 258
pounds.<br>
<br>
I doubt he gained 60 pounds in 9
days on the Atkins diet while in a
coma. A quote from the spokesperson
for the Atkins Physician Counsel: <font color="#000000" face="Trebuchet
MS,Bookman Old Style,Arial" size="3">"During his coma, as he
deteriorated and his major organs
failed, fluid retention and
bloating dramatically distorted
his body and left him at 258
pounds at the time of his death, a
documented weight gain of over 60
pounds."</font><br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
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<div style="font-family:times new
roman,new
york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">
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york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">
<div dir="ltr">
<hr size="1"> <font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
Art Deco <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
Friday, August 30, 2013 3:59
PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic
diets<br>
</font> </div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>To see how well it
worked long term for
Atkins himself read
about his condition at
his death and how his
widow (an interesting
story in itself) tried
to suppress the photos
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