<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>I am somewhat of a real skeptic and have studied skepticism for much of my life. I question everything and always have. But skepticism and questioning has never led me to go out the window instead of the door. When considering policy decisions that have a literally global impact, radical skepticism strikes me as irresponsible. At that point we should listen to experts. It is fine if you want to step out the window because you are a gravity skeptic but I'm going to speak up whenever you decide to take the rest of us with you. Sorry.</div><div><br>On Sep 2, 2013, at 11:10 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div><span></span></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
  
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      The experts have been saying that a low fat, restricted calorie
      diet high in carbs was best for the last 30 years at least.  I'm
      skeptical of their claims.<br>
      <br>
      Anyway, my intention wasn't to derail this thread.  I just found
      the parallels amusing.  Let's make a deal.  If you will take note
      somewhere in the back of your mind that the climate experts might
      be wrong, I'll take note somewhere in the back of my mind that
      they might be right.  Deal?<br>
      <br>
      Paul<br>
      <br>
      On 09/02/2013 09:36 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:<br>
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      <div>One difference is you can find many experts on the various
        sides of the diet debate. If the experts -- folks with MDs and
        PhDs -- said one diet was better than all others, then go on
        that diet! But that is not the case. Faulty analogy.</div>
      <div><br>
        On Sep 2, 2013, at 8:43 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>
        wrote:<br>
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            I wanted to reply to this sooner, but I was on vacation.<br>
            <br>
            Read Gary Taubes book "Good Calories, Bad Calories".  Or
            search for "gary taubes why we get fat" on YouTube.<br>
            <br>
            It would appear that the "high fat causes heart attacks"
            hypothesis isn't as strong as it was once thought to be. 
            Research comparing high fat / low carb unlimited food intake
            diets vs. the traditional high carb, low fat, restricted
            calorie diet consistently shows the high fat low carb diets
            allow the subjects to lose more weight and it makes their
            cholesterol numbers better.  <br>
            <br>
            Here is an article from the New York Times talking about the
            subject:
            <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0">http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0</a><br>
            <br>
            I chuckle reading this, because there are hallmarks of the
            climate science debate here, too.  Politics gets involved
            and suddenly it hurts your reputation to be skeptical of the
            consensus view. Everyone studies the consensus topics, but
            nobody researches topics that by their very nature conflict
            with the consensus view.  That doesn't make either one of
            the looked-down-upon topics any more true, but I do find it
            amusing to see human nature at work.<br>
            <br>
            That's not to say that high fat low carb diets are perfect. 
            I have seen research that shows that if you have a
            pre-existing heart condition, then the ketogenic diet might
            make it harder to recover in the event of a heart attack. 
            I've also seen research that suggests that pregnant women
            who are obese and on that kind of diet can affect their
            babies by making them fatter and have smaller livers.  I
            look at those risks and compare them to the risks of being
            obese, and I side with the diet that will help me lose that
            weight the best and that makes my cholesterol numbers better
            to boot.  I mean, look around.  How many really old fat
            people do you see?  But I admit that it's a complicated area
            of study.  Certainly, if I ever get pregnant, I'll drop off
            the diet for nine months.  <br>
            <br>
            Besides, most of the high fat studies I've run across (I
            haven't done an exhaustive search by any means) involve high
            fat / high carb diets instead of high fat / low carb diets. 
            In other words, simply adding fat to the traditional diet
            appears to be what is risky.  Especially to mice, or
            rabbits.  Yes, one study showed that eating fat from meat
            doesn't sit will with an herbivore's biology.<br>
            <br>
            I know one data point is just an anecdote, but my appetite
            has already returned to normal, I don't fight sleep in the
            afternoons, I don't crave ice cream or sweets, I'm not
            constantly running to the bathroom, I don't feel the urge to
            keep eating when I know I've had enough, and I seem to have
            as much energy as I had before and I believe that I'm
            thinking clearer.  And, my pants are starting to get loose
            around the waist.<br>
            <br>
            Paul<br>
            <br>
            On 08/31/2013 06:43 AM, Art Deco wrote:<br>
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              <div>@Paul,<br>
                <br>
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              Do you think that eating a high fat diet for years might
              have caused the condition Atkins died of?  Perhaps you
              should read a little about the long term effects of high
              fat diets, those high in "bad" fats like beef fat.<br>
              <br>
              w.<br>
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            <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
              <br>
              <div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 12:40 AM,
                lfalen <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com" target="_blank">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>></span>
                wrote:<br>
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                  .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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                      <p>Mediterranean may be misleading as one might
                        think of a lot of pasta. Not the case. The DASH
                        diet is similar. One should eat whole grains and
                        a minimum of processed or high carb. foods. The
                        more color the better (blueberries etc.), eat
                        legumes and nuts.</p>
                      <p>Roger<br>
                      </p>
                      <br>
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                        <div>
                          <div class="h5">-----Original Message-----<br>
                            From: lfalen <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com" target="_blank">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>><br>
                            To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>,
                            "Art Deco" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>>,

                            "Paul Rumelhart" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>><br>
                            Date: 08/30/13 17:58<br>
                            Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets<br>
                            <br>
                            <div dir="ltr">
                              <div dir="ltr"> 
                                <p>I would not recommend any of the
                                  diets you mentioned for long term. the
                                  Atkins diet can lead to health
                                  problems in the long term. It is
                                  especially dangerous for any one with
                                  kidney problems. For overall good
                                  heath I would recommend the
                                  Mediterranean Diet or something close
                                  to it. In other words a diet with lots
                                  of variety, high in fruits and
                                  vegetables, vegatable oil  such as
                                  Olive, some fish, a small amount of
                                  red meat, and low fat dairy products.</p>
                                <p>Roger<br>
                                </p>
                                <br>
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                                  <hr size="1">-----Original
                                  Message-----<br>
                                  From: "Paul Rumelhart" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>><br>
                                  To: "Art Deco" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>>,

                                  <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
                                  Date: 08/30/13 17:02<br>
                                  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic
                                  diets<br>
                                  <br>
                                  <div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times
                                    new roman,new york,times,serif">I've
                                    seen this claim before.  Here is
                                    what snopes says: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp" target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp</a><br>
                                    <br>
                                    When he went in to the hospital
                                    because of head injuries he
                                    sustained from a fall outside of his
                                    clinic on April 8, 2003, he weighed
                                    195 pounds.  When he died after
                                    being in a coma 9 days later on
                                    April 17, 2003, he weighed in at 258
                                    pounds.<br>
                                    <br>
                                    I doubt he gained 60 pounds in 9
                                    days on the Atkins diet while in a
                                    coma.  A quote from the spokesperson
                                    for the Atkins Physician Counsel:  <font color="#000000" face="Trebuchet
                                      MS,Bookman Old Style,Arial" size="3">"During his coma, as he
                                      deteriorated and his major organs
                                      failed, fluid retention and
                                      bloating dramatically distorted
                                      his body and left him at 258
                                      pounds at the time of his death, a
                                      documented weight gain of over 60
                                      pounds."</font><br>
                                    <br>
                                    Paul<br>
                                    <div><span><br>
                                      </span></div>
                                    <div><br>
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                                      roman,new
                                      york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">
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                                        <div dir="ltr"> 
                                          <hr size="1"> <font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
                                            Art Deco <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>><br>
                                            <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
                                            <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
                                            <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
                                            Friday, August 30, 2013 3:59
                                            PM<br>
                                            <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
                                            Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic
                                            diets<br>
                                          </font> </div>
                                        <div><br>
                                          <div> 
                                            <div dir="ltr"> 
                                              <div>To see how well it
                                                worked long term for
                                                Atkins himself read
                                                about his condition at
                                                his death and how his
                                                widow (an interesting
                                                story in itself) tried
                                                to suppress the photos
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