<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>One difference is you can find many experts on the various sides of the diet debate. If the experts -- folks with MDs and PhDs -- said one diet was better than all others, then go on that diet! But that is not the case. Faulty analogy.</div><div><br>On Sep 2, 2013, at 8:43 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div><span></span></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
  
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      I wanted to reply to this sooner, but I was on vacation.<br>
      <br>
      Read Gary Taubes book "Good Calories, Bad Calories".  Or search
      for "gary taubes why we get fat" on YouTube.<br>
      <br>
      It would appear that the "high fat causes heart attacks"
      hypothesis isn't as strong as it was once thought to be.  Research
      comparing high fat / low carb unlimited food intake diets vs. the
      traditional high carb, low fat, restricted calorie diet
      consistently shows the high fat low carb diets allow the subjects
      to lose more weight and it makes their cholesterol numbers
      better.  <br>
      <br>
      Here is an article from the New York Times talking about the
      subject:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0">http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0</a><br>
      <br>
      I chuckle reading this, because there are hallmarks of the climate
      science debate here, too.  Politics gets involved and suddenly it
      hurts your reputation to be skeptical of the consensus view.
      Everyone studies the consensus topics, but nobody researches
      topics that by their very nature conflict with the consensus
      view.  That doesn't make either one of the looked-down-upon topics
      any more true, but I do find it amusing to see human nature at
      work.<br>
      <br>
      That's not to say that high fat low carb diets are perfect.  I
      have seen research that shows that if you have a pre-existing
      heart condition, then the ketogenic diet might make it harder to
      recover in the event of a heart attack.  I've also seen research
      that suggests that pregnant women who are obese and on that kind
      of diet can affect their babies by making them fatter and have
      smaller livers.  I look at those risks and compare them to the
      risks of being obese, and I side with the diet that will help me
      lose that weight the best and that makes my cholesterol numbers
      better to boot.  I mean, look around.  How many really old fat
      people do you see?  But I admit that it's a complicated area of
      study.  Certainly, if I ever get pregnant, I'll drop off the diet
      for nine months.  <br>
      <br>
      Besides, most of the high fat studies I've run across (I haven't
      done an exhaustive search by any means) involve high fat / high
      carb diets instead of high fat / low carb diets.  In other words,
      simply adding fat to the traditional diet appears to be what is
      risky.  Especially to mice, or rabbits.  Yes, one study showed
      that eating fat from meat doesn't sit will with an herbivore's
      biology.<br>
      <br>
      I know one data point is just an anecdote, but my appetite has
      already returned to normal, I don't fight sleep in the afternoons,
      I don't crave ice cream or sweets, I'm not constantly running to
      the bathroom, I don't feel the urge to keep eating when I know
      I've had enough, and I seem to have as much energy as I had before
      and I believe that I'm thinking clearer.  And, my pants are
      starting to get loose around the waist.<br>
      <br>
      Paul<br>
      <br>
      On 08/31/2013 06:43 AM, Art Deco wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CAB8VJX6CydkEfbQGk03L8xwEMau49HMAzCQg1ogacJf=cg+4bg@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>@Paul,<br>
          <br>
        </div>
        Do you think that eating a high fat diet for years might have
        caused the condition Atkins died of?  Perhaps you should read a
        little about the long term effects of high fat diets, those high
        in "bad" fats like beef fat.<br>
        <br>
        w.<br>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 12:40 AM,
          lfalen <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com" target="_blank">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
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            <div dir="LTR">
              <div dir="LTR">
                <p>Mediterranean may be misleading as one might think of
                  a lot of pasta. Not the case. The DASH diet is
                  similar. One should eat whole grains and a minimum of
                  processed or high carb. foods. The more color the
                  better (blueberries etc.), eat legumes and nuts.</p>
                <p>Roger<br>
                </p>
                <br>
                <blockquote style="padding-left:1em;font-family:tahoma,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;margin-left:1em;border-left-color:blue;border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid" dir="LTR">
                  <hr size="1">
                  <div>
                    <div class="h5">-----Original Message-----<br>
                      From: lfalen <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com" target="_blank">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>><br>
                      To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>, "Art
                      Deco" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>>,
                      "Paul Rumelhart" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>><br>
                      Date: 08/30/13 17:58<br>
                      Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets<br>
                      <br>
                      <div dir="ltr">
                        <div dir="ltr"> 
                          <p>I would not recommend any of the diets you
                            mentioned for long term. the Atkins diet can
                            lead to health problems in the long term. It
                            is especially dangerous for any one with
                            kidney problems. For overall good heath I
                            would recommend the Mediterranean Diet or
                            something close to it. In other words a diet
                            with lots of variety, high in fruits and
                            vegetables, vegatable oil  such as Olive,
                            some fish, a small amount of red meat, and
                            low fat dairy products.</p>
                          <p>Roger<br>
                          </p>
                          <br>
                          <blockquote style="padding-left:1em;font-family:tahoma,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;margin-left:1em;border-left-color:blue;border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid" dir="ltr">
                            <hr size="1">-----Original Message-----<br>
                            From: "Paul Rumelhart" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>><br>
                            To: "Art Deco" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>>,
                            <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
                            Date: 08/30/13 17:02<br>
                            Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets<br>
                            <br>
                            <div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times
                              new roman,new york,times,serif">I've seen
                              this claim before.  Here is what snopes
                              says: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp" target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp</a><br>
                              <br>
                              When he went in to the hospital because of
                              head injuries he sustained from a fall
                              outside of his clinic on April 8, 2003, he
                              weighed 195 pounds.  When he died after
                              being in a coma 9 days later on April 17,
                              2003, he weighed in at 258 pounds.<br>
                              <br>
                              I doubt he gained 60 pounds in 9 days on
                              the Atkins diet while in a coma.  A quote
                              from the spokesperson for the Atkins
                              Physician Counsel:  <font color="#000000" face="Trebuchet MS,Bookman Old
                                Style,Arial" size="3">"During his coma,
                                as he deteriorated and his major organs
                                failed, fluid retention and bloating
                                dramatically distorted his body and left
                                him at 258 pounds at the time of his
                                death, a documented weight gain of over
                                60 pounds."</font><br>
                              <br>
                              Paul<br>
                              <div><span><br>
                                </span></div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div style="font-family:times new
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                                <div style="font-family:times new
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                                  <div dir="ltr"> 
                                    <hr size="1">
                                    <font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
                                      Art Deco <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>><br>
                                      <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
                                      <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
                                      <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
                                      Friday, August 30, 2013 3:59 PM<br>
                                      <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
                                      Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets<br>
                                    </font> </div>
                                  <div><br>
                                    <div> 
                                      <div dir="ltr"> 
                                        <div>To see how well it worked
                                          long term for Atkins himself
                                          read about his condition at
                                          his death and how his widow
                                          (an interesting story in
                                          itself) tried to suppress the
                                          photos and evidence of what a
                                          bloated pig he was at his
                                          death.<br>
                                          <br>
                                           </div>
                                        w.<br>
                                         </div>
                                      <div><br>
                                        <br>
                                        <div>On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at
                                          5:34 PM, Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span>
                                          wrote:<br>
                                          <blockquote style="margin:0px
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0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
                                            <div>
                                              <div style="font-family:times
                                                new roman,new
                                                york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">Is
                                                anyone out there on, or
                                                have been on, a
                                                ketogenic (low carb)
                                                diet like Atkins, Zone,
                                                South Beach, etc?  Did
                                                it work for you?  Did
                                                you run into any
                                                problems?<br>
                                                <br>
                                                I'm in my third week of
                                                a low carb diet, losing
                                                around 2-3 pounds a
                                                week.  I'm shooting for
                                                less than 20g of carbs a
                                                day, which basically
                                                means no breads, no
                                                potatoes, no pasta, and
                                                no sugar-laden
                                                anything.  For those
                                                unfamiliar with the
                                                reasoning behind being
                                                on one, you basically
                                                have to look at your
                                                weight problem not as a
                                                calories in vs calories
                                                out problem, but one
                                                involving fat storage</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>=======================================================</span><br><span> List services made available by First Step Internet,</span><br><span> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.</span><br><span>               <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a></span><br><span>          <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a></span><br><span>=======================================================</span></div></blockquote></body></html>