<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>I forgot to mention the Idaho libertarian's ironic willingness to compromise the first amendment at the drop of a hat. It can't be the gun that played a causal role in the shooting. After all, guns don't shoot people. As it turns out, video games shoot people. Joe</div><div><br>On Aug 26, 2013, at 11:47 PM, Scott Dredge <<a href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
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<div dir="ltr">In terms of violent video games, my all time favorite is 'Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories' followed by 'GTA: San Andreas' followed by 'GTA III'. I'm not so much drawn to the violence. I'm amazed at the capability of the graphics engines and the vastness of the virtual world, the clarity and detail of all the sites, along with numerous missions, side missions, and air/land/water crafts. The audio is incredible as well with its vast genre of radio stations, playlists, disk jockeys, commercials, news reports, and of course my favorite which are beautifully done parodies of right wing talk radio.<br><br>That said, I found 'GTA IV' to be a huge disappointment and I'm crossing my fingers that 'GTA V' which is due out in 20 days, 17 hours, and 12 minutes is greatly improved.<br><br>-Scott<br><br><div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2013 21:23:20 -0700<br>From: <a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com">lfalen@turbonet.com</a><br>CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: Re[2]: Are you REALLY a libertarian?<br><br><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div>Some further comments on your comments, Roger. And thanks for sharing.<br><br>"I do think that government has a right to promote a stable society or family values"<br>
<br></div>If you could find in Mill some comment about "family values" in relation to government regulation, I'd be interested.<br><br>"My grandkids when they are with their dad, watch Psycho and other violent or twisted movies."<br>
<br></div>You are confusing art with rhetoric. Good art tries to inform, not persuade. Psycho is one of the greatest films of all time. It is #1 in the American Film Institutes most thrilling films, #18 on AFI's Greatest American Films, and #30 on IMDb's best films list (as ranked by viewers). There is little evidence that violent art influences violent action. Maybe you know differently. And your evidence in rebuttal would be ...<br>
<br>"I think that government should promote self reliance. ... Government should take care of those that are
unable to help themselves."<br><br></div>I agree.<br><br>"There are a way too many rules and regulation."<br><br>As I noted in the previous reply, I agree.<br><br>"The free market should
dominate. Any rules and regulation should be to see that every one has
an equal opportunity."<br><br></div>With the first claim, I disagree. This strikes me as a very philosophical stance. Why have faith in the free market? I just don't get it. Thus far, the free market has gotten us fast food, pollution, global warming, and (recently) bad education. I don't see how we are benefiting, though I'm open to arguments otherwise.<br>
<br></div>I should clarify. Actually I am in favor of a GENUINELY free market but we don't have that. A genuinely free market would be free of government subsidies and benefits of any kind. But we don't have that. Businesses get all kinds of government benefits: tax relief etc. So if we could cut that crap, that pork, I'd be in favor of a (genuinely) free market. Let them pay their taxes (like the rest of us) and go on their own and see if they can make it. Let the people decide what they want. Maybe that could work. Who knows since we've never tried. If the deal is that businesses have to make it in a GENUINELY free market, then government help of any kind -- even in the form of tax relief -- should be out. Would you favor that plan? If not, you're not really in favor of a free market. If not, then what you favor is big business and not a free market.<br>
<br></div>I'm left thinking that I am far more of a libertarian than you or any Idaho Republican could ever be.<br><div><div><div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div><div class="ecxgmail_extra"><br><br><div class="ecxgmail_quote">
On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:38 PM, lfalen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com" target="_blank">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="ecxgmail_quote" style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div dir="LTR"><br><div></div><br><div style="font-family:tahoma,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;" dir="LTR"><hr size="1">-----Original Message-----<br>From: lfalen <<a href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com" target="_blank">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>><br>
To: "Joe Campbell" <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>Cc: "Moscow Vision 2020" <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>, "Paul Rumelhart" <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>, "Nicholas Gier" <<a href="mailto:ngier006@gmail.com" target="_blank">ngier006@gmail.com</a>><br>
Date: 08/24/13 17:43<br>Subject: Re[2]: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?<br><br>
<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"> Joe<br>
As Nick pointed out an Anarchist believes inn no government. This in impractical as it would result in the bully or the most powerful dominating. A Libertarian ( Classical Liberal) would generally adhere to the precepts outlined by John Stuart Mill. You should have the freedom do do as you please so long as it does not interfere with some one else. In other words your freedom to swing your fist ends at my nose. I do not consider myself a pure Libertarian as defined by Nick. While I am in general agreement, I do think that government has a right to promote a stable society or family values. I do not like all of the violent video games and movies. I think that they are harmful to young people and should be restricted to adults only. I support " The Parents TV Council"l in their effort to keep violent and sexual programing away from kids. My grandkids when they are with their dad, watch Psycho and other violent or twisted movies. At our house they watch "Feature Films for Families".<br>
<br>
I think that government should promote self reliance. Read Clarence Thomas's autobiography. Government should take care of those that are unable to help themselves. Even the disable are able to do some work. When I was with Carnation and Manapo, we had the disabled package our " Small World" bird feed line. Those folks wanted to work.<br>
There are a way too many rules and regulation. The free market should dominate. Any rules and regulation should be to see that every one has an equal opportunity. Some rules are necissary to protect the general welfare, such as food safety. I support more food inspections and regulations to protect the food supply. <br>
Roger<br>
<br> <br>
<div></div>
<br><blockquote style="padding-left:1em;font-family:tahoma,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-left-color:blue;border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid;" dir="ltr">
<hr size="1">-----Original Message-----<br>From: "Joe Campbell" <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>To: lfalen <<a href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com" target="_blank">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>><br>
Cc: "Nicholas Gier" <<a href="mailto:ngier006@gmail.com" target="_blank">ngier006@gmail.com</a>>, "Paul Rumelhart" <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>, "Moscow Vision 2020" <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
Date: 08/24/13 14:53<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?<br><br><div>Which would you keep and why?</div>
<div>
<br>On Aug 24, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Joe Campbell <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br> </div>
<blockquote><div>
<div>What is it then? Which </div>
<div>
<br>On Aug 24, 2013, at 1:48 PM, lfalen <<a href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com" target="_blank">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>> wrote:<br><br> </div>
<blockquote><div><div dir="ltr"> <div>Nick</div>
<div>I don't think that any Libertarian wants to get rid of all government programs. Libertarian is not synonomus with Anarchist.</div>
<div>Roger<br><br><br><br><br> </div>
<div style="padding-left:5px;border-left-color:rgb(119,119,119);border-left-width:3px;border-left-style:solid;">-----Original Message-----<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?<br>From: "Nicholas Gier"<br>
To: "Paul Rumelhart"<br>Date: 08/24/13 08:29:22<br><br><div dir="ltr">Hi Paul,<div><br></div>
<div>Do you really want to get rid of all federal programs? You are talking Tea Party when you claim to know what the Constitution means, just as fundamentalists claim to know what God's will is. </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Perhaps you have forgotten that for over 200 years the Supreme Court, not individuals with their own private interpretations, has determined the meaning of the Constitution, and so far, very few federal programs have been declared unconstitutional.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Just recently "activist" conservatives on the Court ruled that corporations are persons, something that the founders certainly did not intend. Some much for the phony theory of "originalism." The Constitution is obviously a "living" document.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Please clarify your own definition of libertarianism and how it differs from the Tea Party folks.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Nick</div> </div>
<div class="ecxgmail_extra"><br><br><div class="ecxgmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="http://index.html?_n%5bp%5d%5bmain%5d=win.main.tree&_n%5bp%5d%5bcontent%5d=mail.compose&to=godshatter%40yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;" class="ecxgmail_quote">
<div><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt;">In what way does Libertarianism "strip the people of the right to determine their own form of government and the society they wish to live in"? You still vote the same way, the rules of Congress are the same, etc. Libertarians are for reducing the size of government back to what is specified in the Constitution, leaving the rest to the states or the individual. Is that what you are referring to?<br>
<br>Paul<br><div><span><br></span></div>
<div><br></div>
<div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt;"><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1">
<font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Donovan Arnold <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5bp%5d%5bmain%5d=win.main.tree&_n%5bp%5d%5bcontent%5d=mail.compose&to=donovanjarnold2005%40yahoo.com" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> Joe Campbell <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5bp%5d%5bmain%5d=win.main.tree&_n%5bp%5d%5bcontent%5d=mail.compose&to=philosopher.joe%40gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>>; Paul Rumelhart <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5bp%5d%5bmain%5d=win.main.tree&_n%5bp%5d%5bcontent%5d=mail.compose&to=godshatter%40yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>><br>
</font><div><font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b> Moscow Vision 2020 <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5bp%5d%5bmain%5d=win.main.tree&_n%5bp%5d%5bcontent%5d=mail.compose&to=vision2020%40moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
</font></div>
<font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, August 23, 2013 9:44 AM</font><div><div><font face="Arial"><br><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?<br>
</font></div></div> </div>
<div><div><div>
<br><div><div><div style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"> <div> </div>
<div><span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">My objection to Libertarianism is that it strips the people of the right to determine their own form of government and the society they wish to live in. <span> </span>It removes using the government as a means to solve a problem when it may at times be the best or least costly solution.</font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Donovan J. Arnold</font></div>
<div><br></div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <div style="padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);line-height:0;font-size:0px;min-height:0px;">
</div>
<font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Joe Campbell <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5bp%5d%5bmain%5d=win.main.tree&_n%5bp%5d%5bcontent%5d=mail.compose&to=philosopher.joe%40gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> Paul Rumelhart <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5bp%5d%5bmain%5d=win.main.tree&_n%5bp%5d%5bcontent%5d=mail.compose&to=godshatter%40yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b> Moscow Vision 2020 <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5bp%5d%5bmain%5d=win.main.tree&_n%5bp%5d%5bcontent%5d=mail.compose&to=vision2020%40moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, August 22, 2013 7:07 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?<br></font> </div>
<div>
<br><div><div>
<div>My opposition to libertarianism stems from my adherence to social contract theory. We agree to uphold the laws of a particular society in exchange for security. And vice versa: no security, no adherence to the law. </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Social programs are justified from a purely pragmatic point of view. Thus, libertarianism is false.</div>
<div>
<br>On Aug 22, 2013, at 8:47 AM, Paul Rumelhart <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5bp%5d%5bmain%5d=win.main.tree&_n%5bp%5d%5bcontent%5d=mail.compose&to=godshatter%40yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br> </div>
<blockquote><div><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt;">I agree with this. Let's keep the brand name clean, so it doesn't get taken over like the original Tea Party did.<br>
<br>I do see a lot of pushback to Libertarianism by both Democrats and Republicans, which makes me think they're on the right track.<br><br>Paul<br><div><span><br></span></div>
<div><br></div>
<div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt;"><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <div style="padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);line-height:0;font-size:0px;min-height:0px;">
</div>
<font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Joe Campbell <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5bp%5d%5bmain%5d=win.main.tree&_n%5bp%5d%5bcontent%5d=mail.compose&to=philosopher.joe%40gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> Moscow Vision 2020 <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5bp%5d%5bmain%5d=win.main.tree&_n%5bp%5d%5bcontent%5d=mail.compose&to=vision2020%40moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, August 21, 2013 5:19 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?<br></font> </div>
<div>
<br><div><div dir="ltr"> <a href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/08/30/773243/-Top-10-Signs-You-Might-Not-Be-A-Libertarian?detail=facebook#" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/08/30/773243/-Top-10-Signs-You-Might-Not-Be-A-Libertarian?detail=facebook#</a><br>
</div></div>
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