<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"></head><body dir="auto"><div>I am sure this will totally shock you V-Peeps, but . . .</div><div><br></div><div>"I'm a Card-Carrying, Bleeding Heart Liberal"</div><div><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px; white-space: nowrap; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: none; "><a href="http://www.tomandrodna.com/songs/Card_Carryhing_Bleeding_Heart_LiberalLR.mp3">http://www.tomandrodna.com/songs/Card_Carryhing_Bleeding_Heart_LiberalLR.mp3</a></span></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Although, I have not ALWAYS been anti-handgun . . .</div><div><br></div><div><img src="cid:3747D667-95BC-4E8B-8CC4-8929EE842688" alt="image.png" id="3747D667-95BC-4E8B-8CC4-8929EE842688" width="610" height="398"><br><br><div>Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .</div><div><br></div><div>"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</div><div><a href="http://www.MoscowCares.com">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div><div> </div><div><div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div><br></div><div>"<span style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">There's room at the top they are telling you still</span><span style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "> </span></div><span style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill </span><br style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "><span style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div><div><font size="3"><span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></font></div><div><font size="3"><span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">- John Lennon<br></span></font><div> </div></div><div><br></div></div><div><br>On Aug 26, 2013, at 6:56 PM, Joe Campbell <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div>Mill calls his position "liberalism," in contrast to legal moralism and legal paternalism. Mill would not legislate against gay marriage or abortion. I'm a Millian -- a legal liberal and a legal minimalist: the fewer laws the better. But Mill also endorsed the harm principle. Laws protecting folks from harm -- harm to self, harm to interests, harm to property -- are fine. I'm not sure but I would hope that Mill recognized the need for social welfare, for at least some persons, for at least some time.</div><div><br>On Aug 26, 2013, at 5:38 PM, lfalen <<a href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><style>div.iw_mail p{margin:0;padding:0;}</style><div class="iw_mail" dir="LTR"><br><div class="signature"></div><br><div style="font-family: tahoma,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" dir="LTR"><hr size="1">-----Original Message-----<br>From: lfalen <<a href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>><br>To: "Joe Campbell" <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>Cc: "Moscow Vision 2020" <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>, "Paul Rumelhart" <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>, "Nicholas Gier" <<a href="mailto:ngier006@gmail.com">ngier006@gmail.com</a>><br>Date: 08/24/13 17:43<br>Subject: Re[2]: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?<br><br>
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<div dir="ltr" class="iw_mail"><div dir="ltr" class="iw_mail"> <p>Joe</p>
<p>As Nick pointed out an Anarchist believes inn no government. This in impractical as it would result in the bully or the most powerful dominating. A Libertarian ( Classical Liberal) would generally adhere to the precepts outlined by John Stuart Mill. You should have the freedom do do as you please so long as it does not interfere with some one else. In other words your freedom to swing your fist ends at my nose. I do not consider myself a pure Libertarian as defined by Nick. While I am in general agreement, I do think that government has a right to promote a stable society or family values. I do not like all of the violent video games and movies. I think that they are harmful to young people and should be restricted to adults only. I support " The Parents TV Council"l in their effort to keep violent and sexual programing away from kids. My grandkids when they are with their dad, watch Psycho and other violent or twisted movies. At our house they watch "Feature Films for Families".</p>
<p> </p>
<p> I think that government should promote self reliance. Read Clarence Thomas's autobiography. Government should take care of those that are unable to help themselves. Even the disable are able to do some work. When I was with Carnation and Manapo, we had the disabled package our " Small World" bird feed line. Those folks wanted to work.</p>
<p>There are a way too many rules and regulation. The free market should dominate. Any rules and regulation should be to see that every one has an equal opportunity. Some rules are necissary to protect the general welfare, such as food safety. I support more food inspections and regulations to protect the food supply. </p>
<p>Roger</p>
<p><br> </p>
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<br><blockquote style="padding-left: 1em; font-family: tahoma,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; margin-left: 1em; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid;" dir="ltr" class="reply_block">
<hr size="1">-----Original Message-----<br>From: "Joe Campbell" <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>To: lfalen <<a href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>><br>Cc: "Nicholas Gier" <<a href="mailto:ngier006@gmail.com">ngier006@gmail.com</a>>, "Paul Rumelhart" <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>, "Moscow Vision 2020" <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>Date: 08/24/13 14:53<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?<br><br><div>Which would you keep and why?</div>
<div>
<br>On Aug 24, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Joe Campbell <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br> </div>
<blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div>What is it then? Which </div>
<div>
<br>On Aug 24, 2013, at 1:48 PM, lfalen <<a href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>> wrote:<br><br> </div>
<blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"> <div>Nick</div>
<div>I don't think that any Libertarian wants to get rid of all government programs. Libertarian is not synonomus with Anarchist.</div>
<div>Roger<br><br><br><br><br> </div>
<div style="padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-left-width: 3px; border-left-style: solid;">-----Original Message-----<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?<br>From: "Nicholas Gier"<br>To: "Paul Rumelhart"<br>Date: 08/24/13 08:29:22<br><br><div dir="ltr">Hi Paul,<div><br></div>
<div>Do you really want to get rid of all federal programs? You are talking Tea Party when you claim to know what the Constitution means, just as fundamentalists claim to know what God's will is. </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Perhaps you have forgotten that for over 200 years the Supreme Court, not individuals with their own private interpretations, has determined the meaning of the Constitution, and so far, very few federal programs have been declared unconstitutional.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Just recently "activist" conservatives on the Court ruled that corporations are persons, something that the founders certainly did not intend. Some much for the phony theory of "originalism." The Constitution is obviously a "living" document.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Please clarify your own definition of libertarianism and how it differs from the Tea Party folks.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Nick</div> </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;" class="gmail_quote">
<div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">In what way does Libertarianism "strip the people of the right to determine their own form of government and the society they wish to live in"? You still vote the same way, the rules of Congress are the same, etc. Libertarians are for reducing the size of government back to what is specified in the Constitution, leaving the rest to the states or the individual. Is that what you are referring to?<br><br>Paul<br><div><span><br></span></div>
<div><br></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1">
<font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Donovan Arnold <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Joe Campbell <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>>; Paul Rumelhart <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>><br></font><div class="im"><font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> Moscow Vision 2020 <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br></font></div>
<font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, August 23, 2013 9:44 AM</font><div><div class="h5"><font face="Arial"><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?<br></font></div></div> </div>
<div><div class="h5"><div>
<br><div><div><div style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> <div> </div>
<div><span><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">My objection to Libertarianism is that it strips the people of the right to determine their own form of government and the society they wish to live in. <span> </span>It removes using the government as a means to solve a problem when it may at times be the best or least costly solution.</font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">Donovan J. Arnold</font></div>
<div><br></div>
<div style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <div style="margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); line-height: 0; font-size: 0px; min-height: 0px;"></div>
<font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Joe Campbell <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Paul Rumelhart <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> Moscow Vision 2020 <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, August 22, 2013 7:07 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?<br></font> </div>
<div>
<br><div><div>
<div>My opposition to libertarianism stems from my adherence to social contract theory. We agree to uphold the laws of a particular society in exchange for security. And vice versa: no security, no adherence to the law. </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Social programs are justified from a purely pragmatic point of view. Thus, libertarianism is false.</div>
<div>
<br>On Aug 22, 2013, at 8:47 AM, Paul Rumelhart <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=godshatter@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><br> </div>
<blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">I agree with this. Let's keep the brand name clean, so it doesn't get taken over like the original Tea Party did.<br><br>I do see a lot of pushback to Libertarianism by both Democrats and Republicans, which makes me think they're on the right track.<br><br>Paul<br><div><span><br></span></div>
<div><br></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <div style="margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); line-height: 0; font-size: 0px; min-height: 0px;"></div>
<font face="Arial"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Joe Campbell <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Moscow Vision 2020 <<a href="http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, August 21, 2013 5:19 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?<br></font> </div>
<div>
<br><div><div dir="ltr"> <a href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/08/30/773243/-Top-10-Signs-You-Might-Not-Be-A-Libertarian?detail=facebook#" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/08/30/773243/-Top-10-Signs-You-Might-Not-Be-A-Libertarian?detail=facebook#</a><br> </div></div>
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