<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra">You nailed it in one line, Joe.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 12:20 PM, Joe Campbell <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
...<br>But now I've moved onto a much broader issue, Darrell! You might be as perplexed by it as I am.<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div><br></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Darrell Keim <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:keim153@gmail.com" target="_blank">keim153@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div dir="ltr">I've got a few comments interspersed with yours below, Joe.<div class="gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
<div>On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Joe Campbell <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div dir="auto"><div>Thanks Darrell. I guess it was the explicit nature of the ban against gays that makes me scratch my head.</div>
</div></blockquote></div><div>I believe it is due to who their largest chartering organizations are (LDS and Catholic churches are the top two.) </div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div dir="auto"><div><br></div><div>Suppose a scouting franchise was owned by a church the members of which didn't consider (say) LDS to be a Christian religion, and also considered all non-Christians to be atheists. By your reasoning it would be fine for that troop to ban Mormons, which seems wrong.</div>
</div></blockquote></div><div>To be clear-A Scout doesn't need to be Christian. They need to believe in a god (or gods), not God. And, in reality, any troop can choose not to accept any boy or adult for membership at the local level. As I used to tell people, if the troop or its chartering org. want to prohibit blondes, that is their right. At a practical level, when I was a pro I would've freaked out if I had heard about a troop doing such...</div>
<div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div dir="auto"><div><br></div><div>That strikes me as an appropriate analogy with the gay scout case. It isn't as if all Christian denominations are equally opposed to "homosexuality." There are gay bishops in both the Episcopal and Lutheran churches, for instance. And of course there are non-Christian denominations that are tolerant of gays and lesbians as well. </div>
</div></blockquote></div><div>Correct. It has been a huge debate within the program. National took a vote prior to the recent policy change. About 60% favored the change. Not a huge margin! But, again, look at who charters the troops. </div>
<div> </div><div>On the local level our council had "fireside chats" prior to the vote. The top local exec polled local volunteers opinions, and answered questions. I went to one in Lewiston. Out of about 30 people present-a room full of people I know, and some I consider friends-I was the only person to speak in favor of changing the policy.</div>
<div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div dir="auto"><div><br></div><div>It seems wrong to ban scouts based on their religious views and if one of the local franchises did so I'm sure there would be an uproar. I see no difference in the case of sexual preference. </div>
</div></blockquote></div><div>Again-to be clear-the Scouts wouldn't ban one because of their religious views. Only their nonreligious views. </div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div dir="auto"><div><br></div><div>By the way I was a Boy Scout so I'm not opposed to scouting in general. I'm proud of you for your service to the community and I'm sure the boys whose lives you've influenced are happy for your services as well.</div>
</div></blockquote></div><div>Thanks for the kind words Joe. You made me smile! </div><div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div dir="auto"><div><div><div><br>On Jun 7, 2013, at 10:16 AM, Darrell Keim <<a href="mailto:keim153@gmail.com" target="_blank">keim153@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">
<div>"What I don't understand is that there are a lot of "immoral" activities besides "homosexuality" and atheism (neither one of which I consider to be genuinely immoral). Why not explicitly list them all? You could apparently be a thief, a liar, a rapist, etc. and the scouts don't give a damn. That's why the restrictions are/were prejudicial in my view."</div>
<div> </div><div>Joe:</div><div> </div><div>When you join the Scouts you take an oath to "Do Your Best" to abide by a code described in the Scout Oath and Law.</div><div> </div><div>The twelve points of the Scout Law would seem to implicitly preclude membership for rapists, thieves, etc. I will concede that is not explicit exclusion, as their current stance against homosexual leaders is.</div>
<div> </div><div>Having spent nearly 10 years as a Scouting professional, and now serving as one of the top local district leaders, I could go into great amounts of detail about many Scouting related topics, but I will graciously save you from the boredom. Suffice it to say that most of their stances have to do with how they are structured. They are essentially a franchise, and they license out the rights to use their program to local organizations. Like all franchises, those organizations own the local group, but agree to abide by Scouting policies. Once you realize that most (75-80%) Scouting groups are "owned" by churches (Some of the largest users of the program are the Catholic, LDS, Methodist and Lutheran churches), it becomes clear why they take certain stances.</div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 9:56 AM, Joe Campbell <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>It is funny that you ask that, Wayne! Here is the BSA's statement on the matter:<br>
<br>The BSA maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen
without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout
Oath or Promise the member declares, "On my honor I will do my best to
do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law."<br><br></div>So technically, you can't be an atheist and a boy scout.<br><br><br></div><div>What I don't understand is that there are a lot of "immoral" activities besides "homosexuality" and atheism (neither one of which I consider to be genuinely immoral). Why not explicitly list them all? You could apparently be a thief, a liar, a rapist, etc. and the scouts don't give a damn. That's why the restrictions are/were prejudicial in my view.<br>
</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div>On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 9:24 AM, Wayne Price <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bear@moscow.com" target="_blank">bear@moscow.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div><div><div>Tom,<div><br>
</div><div>I hate to admit this, but we agree! Now comes the question of why this sponsorship was afforded to a private organization in the first place by a branch of government, like the Sheriff's department, subsidized by taxes? </div>
<div><br></div><div>I seriously run into 1st amendment issues, with a government agency, supported by tax dollars, sponsoring ANY group who's basic principles require an oath to " do my duty to God".</div><div>
Does this mean that those who, for what ever reason, do not believe in "God" are not welcome as they cannot take such an oath in good conscience?</div><span><font color="#888888"><div><span style="font-family:Verdana,"Arial Black","Helvetica Black",sans-serif;font-size:14px"><h2>
<font color="#144fae"><br></font></h2></span></div><div><br></div><div>Wayne</div></font></span><div><div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div>
<div>On Jun 7, 2013, at 9:07 AM, Tom Hansen wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="auto"><div>Wayne Price inquires:</div><div><br></div><div><span>"</span><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">And before some of the so called liberals on the list accuse me of advocating one way or the other, does a sponsor (who ever that sponsor is) have the right to bow out of a program that doesn't share it' s core beliefs?"</span></div>
<div><span><br></span></div><div><span>NOT if that sponsor is publiclly subsidized, like a county sheriff's office by taxes.</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><span>If a private entity wishes to withdraw its support for ANYTHING . . . so what!<br>
</span><br><div>Seeya at the Wingding, Moscow, because . . .</div><div><br></div><div>"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</div><div><a style="border:0px solid black" href="http://www.MoscowCares.com/" target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div>
<div> </div><div><div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div><br></div><div>"<span style="font-size:medium">There's room at the top they are telling you still</span><span style="font-size:medium"> </span></div>
<span style="font-size:medium">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill </span><br style="font-size:medium"><span style="font-size:medium">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div><div><font size="3"><span><br>
</span></font></div><div><font size="3"><span>- John Lennon<br></span></font><div> </div></div><div><br></div></div><div><br>On Jun 7, 2013, at 8:57 AM, Wayne Price <<a href="mailto:bear@moscow.com" target="_blank">bear@moscow.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div><blockquote type="cite">And before some of the so called liberals on the list accuse me of advocating one way or the other, does a sponsor (who ever that sponsor is) have the right to bow out of a program that doesn't share it' s core beliefs?</blockquote>
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