<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>The person who identifies them is the confused one.</div><div><br>On Jun 1, 2013, at 1:40 PM, Scott Dredge <<a href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div><span></span></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
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<div dir="ltr"><div>You are confusing norms (what should be the case) with facts about the universe (what is the case).</div><br><div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 10:53:25 -0700<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?)<br>From: <a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br>CC: <a href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>; <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br><br><div dir="ltr"><br><div><div>If the creation story you are supposing is true, then NO ONE is a
(true) creator of anything other than God. We are all just characters in God's
"program." Computer programmers are no more the ultimate cause of their
programs than parents are of their children. To the extent that computer
programmers are justified in "killing" their programs by virtue of
"creating" them -- and this supports the idea that God is justified in
killing humans -- the same principle should apply to parents, as well.
Yet it clearly doesn't apply to parents.<br><br>Thus, either the
principle is false (as I maintain) or it is at least not supported by
your example. In fact, you can't find an example to support the
principle since there is only one true creator (according to your
creation story). Nothing in the set of your cumulative life experiences could provide the basis for such a principle.<br><br></div>Again, I'm just trying to make a point
similar to the one that Nick made in his original post, or maybe I'm
extending that point a bit. Really our only understanding of morality comes from the human realm, as your attempt to support the principle in question suggests. (I'm not saying morality is a human creation, just that our moral understanding is limited by our experiences.) If we apply those moral principles to God, then the problem of evil suggests that some religious views are problematic. But not all, as Nick notes. People try to get around this by making up crazy moral principles that give God a unique moral status but it is unclear how those principles could be supported. Nick did a good job of showing that some of those principles have absurd consequences. My point is that they aren't and can't be support by appeal to common sense examples, nor anything else as far as I can see.<br>
</div></div><div class="ecxgmail_extra"><br><br><div class="ecxgmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="ecxgmail_quote" style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;">In my analogy, the parent is just another character in the video game. They didn't program it, they just made use of an existing subroutine to generate another character. The programmer(s) that made game is a different story.<span class="ecxHOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>Paul<br></font></span><div class="ecxhm ecxHOEnZb"><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div> </div><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt;"><div class="ecxhm ecxHOEnZb"> </div><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt;">
<div class="ecxhm ecxHOEnZb"> </div><div dir="ltr"><div class="ecxhm ecxHOEnZb"> <hr size="1"> </div><font face="Arial"><div class="ecxhm ecxHOEnZb"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Joe Campbell <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> <br><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b> Scott Dredge <<a href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>>; viz
<<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>> <br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 31, 2013 9:54 PM</div><div><div class="h5"><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?)<br>
</div></div></font> </div><div><div class="h5"> <div><br><div><div><div>The "I created it, I can kill it" rule doesn't work for parents, right?</div><div><br>On May 31, 2013, at 8:10 AM, Paul Rumelhart <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div><blockquote><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;">The way I view it, since God created the universe and everything in it,
then if anyone has the right to kill one of the denizens therein, God
does. Especially since, to Him, He's just moving us from one place to another (earth to heaven or hell). It would be like saying that a computer programmer doesn't have the right to kill off the characters in the video game he's writing.<br>
<br>Paul<br><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div dir="ltr">
<hr size="1"> <font face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Joe Campbell <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> Scott Dredge <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b> viz <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>> <br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 31, 2013 6:16 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?)<br> </font> </div> <div><br>
<div><div><div>You are confusing descriptive facts about the world (what is the case) with norms (what should be the case).</div><div><br>On May 30, 2013, at 7:38 PM, Scott Dredge <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div><blockquote><div>
<div dir="ltr">'Might makes right' is irrespective of a belief in God. It's an irrefutable fact of life, the universe, and everything. It holds true for your rhetorical question of 'can [God] not take our bodies away at will' and Joe's scenario about killing your own dog if you so choose. It doesn't really matter one wit if someone deems that someone else 'has no right' to do something. All that some else (or entity) needs is means, motive, opportunity, and - above all else - the power to do it.<br>
<br><div><hr>Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 18:50:04 -0700<br>From: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a><br>Subject: Re: RE: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?)<br>
To: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>; <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a><br>CC: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
<br><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top"><div dir="ltr">Only if you don't believe in God. </div>
<div dir="ltr">Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android</div>
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<span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span>
</b>
Scott Dredge <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>>; <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span>
</b>
Donovan Arnold <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>>; <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a> <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>>; <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span>
</b>
viz <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>; <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span>
</b>
RE: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping'
(really?) <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span>
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Fri, May 31, 2013 1:37:55 AM <br>
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<td valign="top"><div dir="ltr">Might makes right.<br><br><div><hr>Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 00:41:29 -0700<br>From: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a><br>
To: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>CC: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?)<br>
<br><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top"><div dir="ltr">Didn't say kill it Joe. We didn't create dogs we simple capture them and call them our own. We do modify the bodies of dogs. And we do kill our
pets and other animals under conditions we deem proper. </div>
<div dir="ltr">Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android</div>
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<span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span>
</b>
Joe Campbell <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>>; <br>
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<span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span>
</b>
Donovan Arnold <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>>; <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span>
</b>
Nicholas Gier <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:ngier006@gmail.com" target="_blank">ngier006@gmail.com</a>>; vision2020 <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>; <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span>
</b>
Re: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?) <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span>
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Wed, May 29, 2013 4:55:07 PM <br>
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<td valign="top"><div dir="ltr"><div>Donovan asks: "... <span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana;"><span>since we are also the property of God, can he not take our bodies away at will?"<br>
<br></span></span></span></div>
<span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana;"><span>No. Even if you own a dog, you can't just kill it because you want to do so. Sorry.<br></span></span></span></div><div><br><br><div>
On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:19 AM, Donovan Arnold <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div><div style="font-size:8pt;font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div></div><span><div>I don't think God punishes us with tornadoes, floods, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. Most of these deaths are almost 100% human fault. We know where floods, earthquakes and volcanoes are located, yet choose to still build crappy buildings and live there. Tornado deaths are now usually the fault of global warming, caused by humans, and the collapse of buildings, built by humans in tornado prone areas. God doesn't create the deadly situation, humans do. Any human saved from the <span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana;">consequences<span> of human action can be considered an act of God. However, let us also consider that since we are also the property of God, can he not take our bodies away at will? To God, nothing dies, it just changes shape</span></span></div></span></div></div></blockquote></div></div></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div></div></div></div></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></body></html>