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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'><div>You are confusing norms (what should be the case) with facts about the universe (what is the case).</div><br><div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 10:53:25 -0700<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?)<br>From: philosopher.joe@gmail.com<br>To: godshatter@yahoo.com<br>CC: scooterd408@hotmail.com; vision2020@moscow.com<br><br><div dir="ltr"><br><div><div>If the creation story you are supposing is true, then NO ONE is a
(true) creator of anything other than God. We are all just characters in God's
"program." Computer programmers are no more the ultimate cause of their
programs than parents are of their children. To the extent that computer
programmers are justified in "killing" their programs by virtue of
"creating" them -- and this supports the idea that God is justified in
killing humans -- the same principle should apply to parents, as well.
Yet it clearly doesn't apply to parents.<br><br>Thus, either the
principle is false (as I maintain) or it is at least not supported by
your example. In fact, you can't find an example to support the
principle since there is only one true creator (according to your
creation story). Nothing in the set of your cumulative life experiences could provide the basis for such a principle.<br><br></div>Again, I'm just trying to make a point
similar to the one that Nick made in his original post, or maybe I'm
extending that point a bit. Really our only understanding of morality comes from the human realm, as your attempt to support the principle in question suggests. (I'm not saying morality is a human creation, just that our moral understanding is limited by our experiences.) If we apply those moral principles to God, then the problem of evil suggests that some religious views are problematic. But not all, as Nick notes. People try to get around this by making up crazy moral principles that give God a unique moral status but it is unclear how those principles could be supported. Nick did a good job of showing that some of those principles have absurd consequences. My point is that they aren't and can't be support by appeal to common sense examples, nor anything else as far as I can see.<br>
</div></div><div class="ecxgmail_extra"><br><br><div class="ecxgmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="ecxgmail_quote" style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;">In my analogy, the parent is just another character in the video game. They didn't program it, they just made use of an existing subroutine to generate another character. The programmer(s) that made game is a different story.<span class="ecxHOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>Paul<br></font></span><div class="ecxhm ecxHOEnZb"><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div> </div><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt;"><div class="ecxhm ecxHOEnZb"> </div><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt;">
<div class="ecxhm ecxHOEnZb"> </div><div dir="ltr"><div class="ecxhm ecxHOEnZb"> <hr size="1"> </div><font face="Arial"><div class="ecxhm ecxHOEnZb"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Joe Campbell <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> <br><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b> Scott Dredge <<a href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>>; viz
<<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>> <br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 31, 2013 9:54 PM</div><div><div class="h5"><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?)<br>
</div></div></font> </div><div><div class="h5"> <div><br><div><div><div>The "I created it, I can kill it" rule doesn't work for parents, right?</div><div><br>On May 31, 2013, at 8:10 AM, Paul Rumelhart <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div><blockquote><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;">The way I view it, since God created the universe and everything in it,
then if anyone has the right to kill one of the denizens therein, God
does. Especially since, to Him, He's just moving us from one place to another (earth to heaven or hell). It would be like saying that a computer programmer doesn't have the right to kill off the characters in the video game he's writing.<br>
<br>Paul<br><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div dir="ltr">
<hr size="1"> <font face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Joe Campbell <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> Scott Dredge <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b> viz <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>> <br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 31, 2013 6:16 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?)<br> </font> </div> <div><br>
<div><div><div>You are confusing descriptive facts about the world (what is the case) with norms (what should be the case).</div><div><br>On May 30, 2013, at 7:38 PM, Scott Dredge <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div><blockquote><div>
<div dir="ltr">'Might makes right' is irrespective of a belief in God. It's an irrefutable fact of life, the universe, and everything. It holds true for your rhetorical question of 'can [God] not take our bodies away at will' and Joe's scenario about killing your own dog if you so choose. It doesn't really matter one wit if someone deems that someone else 'has no right' to do something. All that some else (or entity) needs is means, motive, opportunity, and - above all else - the power to do it.<br>
<br><div><hr>Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 18:50:04 -0700<br>From: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a><br>Subject: Re: RE: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?)<br>
To: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>; <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a><br>CC: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
<br><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top"><div dir="ltr">Only if you don't believe in God. </div>
<div dir="ltr">Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android</div>
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<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span>
</b>
Scott Dredge <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>>; <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span>
</b>
Donovan Arnold <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>>; <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a> <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>>; <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span>
</b>
viz <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>; <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span>
</b>
RE: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping'
(really?) <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span>
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Fri, May 31, 2013 1:37:55 AM <br>
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<td valign="top"><div dir="ltr">Might makes right.<br><br><div><hr>Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 00:41:29 -0700<br>From: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a><br>
To: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>CC: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?)<br>
<br><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top"><div dir="ltr">Didn't say kill it Joe. We didn't create dogs we simple capture them and call them our own. We do modify the bodies of dogs. And we do kill our
pets and other animals under conditions we deem proper. </div>
<div dir="ltr">Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android</div>
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<span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span>
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Joe Campbell <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>>; <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span>
</b>
Donovan Arnold <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>>; <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span>
</b>
Nicholas Gier <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:ngier006@gmail.com" target="_blank">ngier006@gmail.com</a>>; vision2020 <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>; <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span>
</b>
Re: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?) <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span>
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Wed, May 29, 2013 4:55:07 PM <br>
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<td valign="top"><div dir="ltr"><div>Donovan asks: "... <span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana;"><span>since we are also the property of God, can he not take our bodies away at will?"<br>
<br></span></span></span></div>
<span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana;"><span>No. Even if you own a dog, you can't just kill it because you want to do so. Sorry.<br></span></span></span></div><div><br><br><div>
On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:19 AM, Donovan Arnold <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div><div style="font-size:8pt;font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif;"><div></div><span><div>I don't think God punishes us with tornadoes, floods, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. Most of these deaths are almost 100% human fault. We know where floods, earthquakes and volcanoes are located, yet choose to still build crappy buildings and live there. Tornado deaths are now usually the fault of global warming, caused by humans, and the collapse of buildings, built by humans in tornado prone areas. God doesn't create the deadly situation, humans do. Any human saved from the <span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana;">consequences<span> of human action can be considered an act of God. However, let us also consider that since we are also the property of God, can he not take our bodies away at will? To God, nothing dies, it just changes shape and location.
Only in our minds is the death of someone a loss. </span></span></div><div><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana;"><span></span></span> </div><div><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana;"><span>Donovan J. Arnold</span></span></div>
</span><div></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:8pt;"> <div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <div style="padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);min-height:0px;line-height:0;font-size:0px;">
</div> <font face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Nicholas Gier <<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ngier006@gmail.com</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> vision2020 <<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, May 27, 2013 10:51 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?)<br> </font> </div>
<div><br><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Good Morning Visionaries:</div><div><br></div><div>I dusted off this exercise in the philosophy of religion from the time of Katrina and I'm reissuing it once again.</div><div><br></div>
<div>One Oklahoma official said that it was wonderful that God saved those who survived. But if God was the cause of the storm, then why didn't he save those who did not make it? I address the issue of Satan below.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The problem of evil and the very unsatisfactory answer from the Abrahamic religions is one of the primary reasons why good, rational people become atheists.</div><div><br></div><div>On this Memorial Day I send out my own tribute to those were served, and also those, such as Rosie the Riveter and my UP train master father, who made sure that war machines were built and that those machines and soldiers got to where they were needed.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Nick</div><div><br></div><div><div style="text-align:center;line-height:19.42px;" align="center"><b><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;">THE GOOD LORD JUST DONE GAVE US A WHUPPIN’!</span></b></div>
<div style="text-align:center;line-height:19.42px;" align="center"><b><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;">NATURAL DISASTERS AS THE WRATH OF GOD?</span></b></div><div style="text-align:center;line-height:19.42px;" align="center">
<span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;">I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.</span><br></div><div style="text-align:center;line-height:19.42px;" align="center"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;">~Isaiah 45:7 (Anchor Bible)</span></div>
<div style="line-height:19.42px;"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;"> </span><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;">Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do the wicked get away with murder and the innocent die in disasters such as tornadoes, hurricanes, and terrorist attacks?</span><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;"> </span><br>
</div><div style="line-height:19.42px;"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;"> After Katrina hit, a man gave this explanation to NPR: “The Good Lord just done gave us a whuppin’.” </span><span style="text-indent:0.5in;font-family:Georgia,serif;">This is the Pat Robertson answer: all of us are being punished for the sins of homosexuals, abortionists, and their liberal supporters.</span><span style="text-indent:0.5in;font-family:Georgia,serif;"> </span><span style="text-indent:0.5in;font-family:Georgia,serif;">Most of us, however, are repulsed by such an outrageous and poisonous diagnosis.</span></div>
<div style="line-height:19.42px;"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;"> In Agatha Christie’s <i>Then There Were None</i>, one of the characters opines that those who had been murdered were “struck down of the wrath of God.” Justice Wargrave was not convinced: “Providence leaves the work of conviction and chastisement to us mortals.” </span></div>
<div style="line-height:19.42px;"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;"> Justice Wargrave is a good Confucian in holding a doctrine of General Providence. In this view, held also by Presidents Washington and Lincoln, God presides over a world that operates by natural laws and in which humans govern their own affairs. </span></div>
<div style="line-height:19.42px;"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;"> On the other hand, the Abrahamic religions--Judaism, Christianity, and Islam-- believe in Special Providence. This means that God chooses particular prophets or saviors that embody divine authority, and God then intervenes in history as an expression of divine will and judgment.</span></div>
<div style="line-height:19.42px;"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;"> There is a difference between moral evils and natural evils. The first is the result of humans choosing to do good or evil. For orthodox Christians the prototypical moral evil was Adam and Eve’s choice to disobey God in the Garden of Eden. </span></div>
<div style="line-height:19.42px;text-indent:0.5in;"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;">Natural or physical evil is defined as that which is not the result of any human will: disease (both physical and mental) and natural disasters. In a theology in which God is all powerful, it must be God who wills these conditions and events to happen.</span></div>
<div style="line-height:19.42px;text-indent:0.5in;"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;">Recently some Christian legislators in Oklahoma tried to change the language of their insurance law, which called natural disasters “acts of God.” For them Satan was the cause of all evil, and they thought it was blasphemy to make God responsible for these horrible events.</span></div>
<div style="line-height:19.42px;text-indent:0.5in;"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;">Orthodox Christians, however, have always rejected the heresy of Manicheanism, a view that undermines God’s power by holding that there is another cosmic power that competes with God. </span></div>
<div style="line-height:19.42px;text-indent:0.5in;"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;">Following the Book of Job, where it is clear that Satan operates only with the permission and delegated power of God, Christian theologians have consistently declared that even Satan is empowered by God. In the end Job’s brothers and sisters “comforted him for all the evil the Lord brought upon him” (42:11).</span></div>
<div style="line-height:19.42px;text-indent:0.5in;"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;">Martin Luther expressed the point most clearly: “Since God moves and does all, we must take it that he moves and acts even in Satan and the godless; . . . evil things are done with God himself setting them in motion.”</span></div>
<div style="line-height:19.42px;text-indent:0.5in;"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;">How do Christian theologians justify God doing evil? Here is one rationale: God cannot abide the moral evils committed by humans, so God must show that justice must prevail. </span></div>
<div style="line-height:19.42px;text-indent:0.5in;"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;">Natural disasters are simply dramatic previews of the Last Judgment, when divine justice will finally be done. If God is performing justice, then God is doing <i>good</i>, not evil. We would call a judge who let all criminals off the hook a bad judge, wouldn’t we?</span></div>
<div style="line-height:19.42px;text-indent:0.5in;"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;">Let’s take a closer look at this solution to the problem of evil. There is something important that has been forgotten. </span></div>
<div style="line-height:19.42px;text-indent:0.5in;"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;">When the former Manichee St. Augustine discussed the Fall of Adam and Eve, he made a very interesting concession: “Our first parents fell into disobedience because they were already secretly corrupted.” </span></div>
<div style="line-height:19.42px;text-indent:0.5in;"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;">Adam and Eve were already corrupted because they had “deficient wills.” But who was responsible for their deficient wills? They could be only if they had created themselves. The only answer is that God created them finite, fragile, and corruptible. </span></div>
<div style="line-height:19.42px;text-indent:0.5in;"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;">I submit that General Providence is a much more coherent view if people are going to continue their belief in God. The Confucians and Stoics also believed that God is not a Creator. Rather, God is coeternal with a universe that operates according to natural laws and contains rational beings that freely choose their own destinies.</span></div>
<div style="line-height:19.42px;text-indent:0.5in;"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;">Following Justice Wargrave, we are solely responsible for our own “convictions and chastisements.” Louisiana and New Orleans government officials are responsible for not being prepared for the big storm they knew was coming. And God had nothing to do with it, and she certainly does not stand ready with a whip to punish her children.</span></div>
<div style="line-height:19.42px;text-indent:0.5in;"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif;">Nick Gier taught religion and philosophy at the University of Idaho for 31 years.</span></div></div></div></div><br>=======================================================<br>
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