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<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>The lengths people on this list will go to to disagree
with Doug are prodigious indeed. If he were to make the claim that excrement
didn't smell nice, many readers would dab it behind their ears before a
night on the town.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>To effectively refute the Wilson contention that
<EM>"...</EM><SPAN><EM>all</EM> the arguments employed to advance same sex
marriage can be, are being, and will be used to advance polygamy also. In short,
gay marriage greases the skids for polygamy" I would need to hear a
sentence similar to:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri><SPAN>Gay marriage is good because <insert whatever
pocket full of sunshine you like> and have the statement not apply equally to
unions of three or more. This seems like an extremely simple method to determine
whether Wilson's "fallacious claim" stands or falls.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri><SPAN>By the way the most efficient counter to your four
point argument would have to be to simplify it:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri><SPAN>1. Marriage is a legal union between a consenting
man and woman period.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri><SPAN>Any rational you provide to vary
that formula will apply to polygamist unions as well as
homosexual.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri><SPAN>g</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=philosopher.joe@gmail.com
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 03, 2013 10:38 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=moscowlocksmith@gmail.com
href="mailto:moscowlocksmith@gmail.com">Gary Crabtree</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com>"><vision2020@moscow.com></A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Huh? Say WHAT!?</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>If to deny marriage to a man and woman is lacking in the
slightest inkling of human compassion why not a man and man? Why not three or
more? <BR><BR>I can just slightly reword your criticisms and send them back your
way.<BR><BR>That is the point. If there is a slippery-slope it goes in both
directions: all the way from man-woman to group and back again. If Wilson's
argument were sound, and polygamy so horrible, he should work toward abolishing
ALL marriage -- for man-woman marriage HAS led to gay marriage and (according to
Wilson) that will lead to polygamous unions. <BR><BR>But even Wilson knows
enough to ignore such a stupid argument! To defeat the original argument, all I
need to do is show that it has absurd consequences; consequences so absurd that
even the person giving the argument would reject them. This is a form of
reductio ad absurdum.<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 8:49 AM, Gary Crabtree <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:moscowlocksmith@gmail.com"
target=_blank>moscowlocksmith@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>What you conveniently leave out is the why. If to deny any two an
"experience" is lacking in the slightest inkling of human compassion why not
three or more? If you are asking me to accept your statement based on your
irrefutable moral authority you are asking far too much.</DIV><SPAN
class=HOEnZb><FONT color=#888888>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>g<BR><BR></DIV></FONT></SPAN>
<DIV class=HOEnZb>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 6:47 AM, Tom Hansen <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com"
target=_blank>thansen@moscow.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=auto>
<DIV>
<DIV>Perhaps you missed it in my post, Mr. Crabtree.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>So, here it is <B><U>AGAIN</U></B>.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>"<SPAN>To deny ANY <B><U>TWO</U></B> [emphasis added]
individuals of such an experience, merely because it runs contra to somebody
else's belief system, lacks the slightest inkling of human
compassion."</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap; FONT-SIZE: 15px"><A
href="http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2013-March/089517.html"
target=_blank>http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2013-March/089517.html</A></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap; FONT-SIZE: 15px"></SPAN><BR>
<DIV>Two: More than one and less than three.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.MoscowCares.com"
target=_blank>http://www.MoscowCares.com</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Tom Hansen</DIV>
<DIV>Moscow, Idaho</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>"There's room at the top they are telling you still </DIV>But
first you must learn how to smile as you kill <BR>If you want to be
like the folks on the hill."</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>- John Lennon</FONT></DIV></DIV><BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Mar 3, 2013, at 6:29 AM, "Gary Crabtree" <<A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"
target=_blank>jampot@roadrunner.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>I'm not sure what else I can take away. I have
heard that the topic is "complex" and that you don't wish to "confuse
the issue." What I have not heard is the slice of logic that would refute
the statement that so outraged Mr. Hansen and kicked off this thread.
Perhaps I wasn't paying proper attention. Please state for me clearly and
without obfuscation the argument in favor of homosexual marriage the can
not be applied equally to polygamous unions. An analogy as to why
homosexual marriage doesn't necessarily lead to polygamy is not at all the
same thing. It seems to me that without anyone being able to provide the
example that differentiates between the two, Wilson's "fallacious claim"
stands without refute.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: rgb(245,245,245)">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=philosopher.joe@gmail.com
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target=_blank>Joe Campbell</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March 02, 2013 6:12 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A
title="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target=_blank>Gary Crabtree</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A
title="mailto:thansen@moscow.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target=_blank>Tom Hansen</A> ; <A
title="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target=_blank>Paul Rumelhart</A> ; <A
title="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Huh? Say WHAT!?</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>It pains me that I take my time to carefully spell out why
I don't think these are the same at all, legally etc., but your takeaway,
Gary, is that I add support to Wilson's fallacious claim.<BR><BR>An
analogy similar to one I used before: Saying that legalization of gay
marriage will lead to legalization of polygamy is like saying that sex
with your wife will lead to an orgy. I see no reason for thinking the one
than for thinking the other. After all, if you've got reasons for sex with
one person WHY NOT sex with many? Just the same reason over again, right?
But even you can see the line here, Gary, even though these issues are
vague. And so can members of the Supreme Court when it comes to
differentiating between gay marriage and polygamy.<BR><BR>This says
nothing about my views on polygamy, and for a number of reasons I don't
think it is helpful to talk about polygamy while we're working on gay
marriage -- for one thing, though bad, slippery-slope arguments happen to
be persuasive. My point is I COULD hold that gay marriage is OK and
polygamy is not and not be guilty of an inconsistency because of it. This
is a refutation of the Wilson claim.<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Gary Crabtree <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"
target=_blank>jampot@roadrunner.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px; PADDING-RIGHT: 10px; PADDING-TOP: 15px"
name="Compose message area">
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri><SPAN>"</SPAN><SPAN>I argued at length
that <I
style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px">all</I> the
arguments employed to advance same sex marriage can be, are being, and
will be used to advance polygamy also. In short, gay marriage greases
the skids for polygamy."</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>If nothing else this thread has certainly proven
Doug to be spot on in his analysis. Goodness knows that’s gotta
sting.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: rgb(245,245,245)">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A
title="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target=_blank>Joe Campbell</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 01, 2013 6:06 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A
title="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target=_blank>Gary Crabtree</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A
title="mailto:thansen@moscow.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target=_blank>Tom Hansen</A> ; <A
title="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target=_blank>Paul Rumelhart</A> ; <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Huh? Say
WHAT!?</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I'm not denying anything. Maybe three or more. I just
don't want to confuse it with the issue of same-sex marriage. That seems
important to me, just because I can see the folks that such a law might
help. I don't happen to meet many polygamists, so I'm not too concerned
for now.<BR><BR>Why not take one step: include same-sex marriages. If
the polygamists complain as much as the gays and lesbians, we might have
to revisit the issue.<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 5:25 PM, Gary Crabtree
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A
title="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"
target=_blank>jampot@roadrunner.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV
style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px; PADDING-RIGHT: 10px; PADDING-TOP: 15px"
dir=auto name="Compose message area">
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>Then why deny three or more?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: rgb(245,245,245)">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=thansen@moscow.com
href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target=_blank>Tom Hansen</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 01, 2013 2:07 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=godshatter@yahoo.com
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target=_blank>Paul Rumelhart</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A
title="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Huh? Say
WHAT!?</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I absolutely fail to see what the happiness of two adults has
ANYTHING to do with a polygamous relationship.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Let me simply say . . .</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Later this year, I turn 62, my spouse turns whatever age she
acquires, and we (my spouse and I) turn 40; forty of the most
wonderfully memorable and loving years of yesterdays that will only be
improved upon with tomorrows. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>To deny ANY two individuals of such an experience, merely because
it runs contra to somebody else's belief system, lacks the slightest
inkling of human compassion.<BR><BR>
<DIV>Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants
on)</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.MoscowCares.com"
target=_blank>http://www.MoscowCares.com</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Tom Hansen</DIV>
<DIV>Moscow, Idaho</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>"<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: medium">There's room at the top they are
telling you still</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: medium"> </SPAN></DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: medium">But first you must learn how to smile as you
kill </SPAN><BR style="FONT-SIZE: medium"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: medium">If you want to be like the folks on the
hill."</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><SPAN><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><SPAN>- John Lennon<BR></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Mar 1, 2013, at 1:48 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<A
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"
target=_blank>godshatter@yahoo.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,new york,times,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I
think the general argument would run something like this: "if
it's OK for any two consenting adults of either gender to marry,
then why isn't it OK for any three or more consenting adults of any
gender to marry?"<BR><BR>If that's what he's thinking, I can kind of
see his point. Of course, I'm personally fine with gay
marriage, and would have no problems with polygamy either. I'd
be happiest if the government got out of the marriage racket to
begin with, frankly.<BR><BR>Paul<BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,new york,times,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,new york,times,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Joe Campbell
<<A href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"
target=_blank>philosopher.joe@gmail.com</A>><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Art Deco <<A
href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com"
target=_blank>art.deco.studios@gmail.com</A>> <BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A> <BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, March 1, 2013
11:39 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B>
Re: [Vision2020] Huh? Say WHAT!?<BR></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV>Well, if he argued that polygamy and gay marriage are similar,
then that is just another fallacious argument. It is like arguing
that we can give every adult the right to vote because that would
lead to some folks voting more than once. We would be powerless to
avoid that! <BR><BR>
<DIV>On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Art Deco <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" rel=nofollow
target=_blank>art.deco.studios@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV>Cultmaster Wilson is hopelessly floundering as he is swept
out to sea on the tide of reality and oncoming change. But
that's what happens to those that allege total faith in some
"inerrant" ancient texts. Foolhardiness begets misery for
others.<BR><BR></DIV>It's too bad that the Cultmaster is not a
Mormon so that he could have a "new" vision from some alleged God
correcting his current views.<BR><BR></DIV>w.<BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Tom Hansen <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" rel=nofollow
target=_blank>thansen@moscow.com</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>"</SPAN><SPAN>I argued at length that <I
style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px">all</I> the
arguments employed to advance same sex marriage can be, are
being, and will be used to advance polygamy also. In short, gay
marriage greases the skids for polygamy."</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>- Doug Wilson (March 1, 2013)</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap; FONT-SIZE: 15px"><A
href="http://www.dougwils.com/Sex-and-Culture/a-century-of-sinkholes.html"
rel=nofollow
target=_blank>http://www.dougwils.com/Sex-and-Culture/a-century-of-sinkholes.html</A></SPAN><SPAN><BR></SPAN><BR>
<DIV>Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants
on)</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.MoscowCares.com"
target=_blank>http://www.MoscowCares.com</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Tom Hansen</DIV>
<DIV>Moscow, Idaho</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>"<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: medium">There's room at the top
they are telling you still</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: medium"> </SPAN></DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: medium">But first you must learn how to smile
as you kill </SPAN><BR style="FONT-SIZE: medium"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: medium">If you want to be like the folks on
the hill."</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><SPAN><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><SPAN>- John Lennon<BR></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>=======================================================<BR> List
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color=#888888><BR></FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><SPAN><FONT
color=#888888><BR><BR clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Art Deco (Wayne A.
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