<div>I agree (I think) I rationally choose not to discard a potentially valuable tool based on how unlikely it is that I will need to apply it in any one specific application and as such refuse to play russian roulette.</div>
<div> </div><div>Likelihood of firearm as useful tool in home defense scenario <1/6 (doubtless far less given our community) but not =0</div><div>Likelihood of firearm as useful tool when not available =0</div>
<div> </div><div>g</div><div> </div><div><br><br> </div><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Art Deco <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div>@Joe,<br><br>
</div>Empirical evidence is important, and especially some general estimate of the risk.<br><br></div>However, the general risk is different from a specific risk, and more important is the expected value of the risk<br>
<br></div>If for example, I propose to ay you $100 if a throw of a die is greater than 1, but you pay me $100 if the throw equals 1.<br><br></div>EV = (5/6)*100 - (1/6)*100 = $500, normally a very good bet for you in the long run, and little but some risk in a single trial.<br>
<br></div>To see the relevancy of this to the present issue, just change the above game to Russian Roulette. <br><br>The owner of a gun for protection despite the odds, rationally chooses not to pay Russian Roulette.<br>
<br></div><div>w.<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Gary Crabtree <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:moscowlocksmith@gmail.com" target="_blank">moscowlocksmith@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote"><div>In and of itself, no. If he grins, pulls a knife and advances, most likely the answer will be a reluctant yes.</div>
<div> </div><div>I realize full well how unlikely it is that a home defense scenario is, living on the sleepy Palouse and own firearms for reasons that go beyond protection. I simply do not want my rights curtailed based on the shaky statistical argument of lack of need.</div>
<span><font color="#888888">
<div> </div><div>g<br><br></div></font></span><div><div><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 6:50 AM, Joe Campbell <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote"><div dir="auto"><div>So if the intoxicated college student who wanders into your home says "Or what?" your plan is to shoot him?<br>
<br>You keep missing this point: the scenario that you imagine is improbable. There are other more probable scenarios where you end up harming yourself or an innocent victim rather than protecting yourself. <br>
</div><div><br>On Feb 21, 2013, at 5:43 AM, "Gary Crabtree" <<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div><font face="Calibri">The point that you and most of the other anti-firearm
respondents continually miss is that I, nor Paul or Roger are not advocating the
Fearless Fosdick/LAPD tactic of firing a warning shot into the back of the head
of our lovable and slightly confused/intoxicated intruder. What I, and I believe
the others are saying is that a weapon can be a usefull tool in certain
situations and while some may elect to not have that tool at their disposal, I
would like to be able to have it as one of my options. Any sane person would
prefer that an intruder in their home simply leave when told. Having a weapon
forestalls the intruders potential response of "or what."</font></div>
<div><font face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Calibri">g</font></div>
<div style="font:10pt/normal Tahoma;font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal">
<div><br></div>
<div style="background:rgb(245,245,245)">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank">Donovan Arnold</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 20, 2013 11:28 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="moscowlocksmith@gmail.com" href="mailto:moscowlocksmith@gmail.com" target="_blank">Gary Crabtree</a> ; <a title="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com
CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">Art Deco</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a title="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com
CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .</div></div></div>
<div><br></div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:8pt">
<div><span>I guess that would work if
you sat behind your door with a gun waiting for an unexpected guest. The
smartest thing to do if you suspect people are trying to get into your house
would be to exit through the nearest door or window. Then call the police. When
they exit the house the police will be there to nab them, or you can slash their
tires and have fun watching them trying to escape with your insured television.
</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:11px;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><span>Keep in mind, if you shoot an unarmed person that is not
100% in your house you are in legal trouble. A dead body in your house will be
cleaned up and removed at your expense, and it isn't cheap. And you will have to
disclose the death on the sale of the home, which will cost you $10,000s. You
will have to live with the fact that you probably killed an innocent person.
Chances are someone that entered your home unexpectedly in Moscow would be
an intoxicated college student <span><span>whose</span></span>
biggest threat would be <span><span>vomits</span></span> on
your living room carpet. </span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:11px;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><span>There are <span><span>countless</span></span>
risks for getting into a gun battle with an unknown person, the risks of
insuring your belongs and beating feet at the sign of danger are much
less and have far better outcomes. I'm not against owning a gun, but that <span><span><span>scenario</span></span></span> is a
stupid reason to use a gun. I would use a gun if I was out of the immediate
reach of the police and there was a clear and present danger to my life or the
life of another. <span><span>With</span></span> the possible
exception if I was robbed constantly with no help from the police or
insurance companies. </span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>Donovan J.
Arnold</span></div>
<div><br></div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:8pt">
<div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">
<div style="margin:5px 0px;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);line-height:0;font-size:0px;min-height:0px" readonly>
</div><b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Gary Crabtree
<<a href="mailto:moscowlocksmith@gmail.com" target="_blank">moscowlocksmith@gmail.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Art Deco
<<a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>> <br><b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:33
PM<br><b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020]
<span>Hmmm</span> . . .<br></font></div><br>
<div>
<div>The problem does not seem at all insurmountable.</div>
<div><br>Problem, person(s) force entry to ones home without
invitation.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Solution. Point weapon in general direction of intruder and request
(insist) they leave.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Outcome. They comply or they do not.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Compliance equals positive resolution to problem.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Noncompliance results in negative outcome for intruder.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The real problem stems from not having the proper tools to affect the
desired outcome.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>g<br><br></div>
<div>On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at
10:47 AM, Art Deco <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>The problem of dealing with intruders involves sometimes a dangerous lack
of information.<br><br></div>Is the intruder armed?<br><br></div>
<div>Is there more than one?<br></div>
<div><br></div>What are the intentions of of the intruder?<br><br></div>Who is
the intruder? Is she/he someone known? What is the relevant
history of the intruder?<br><br></div>Are there effective/non-lethal ways of
neutralizing the intruder?<br><br></div>How can those intruded upon calculate
the the risk to themselves, and decide upon the action to be
taken?<br><br><br></div>w.<br></div>
<div><br><br>
<div>On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Joe
Campbell <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div>
<div>These are empirically claims. Could be that pulling out a gun increases
your risk. It depends on a lot of factors.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>The big question is: does the potential for help outweigh the risk of
harm?</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>And I hate to tell you that in a region with a low incidence of gun
violence, the answer is 'No.' Paul's weapons are more likely to cause him
harm than they are to protect him.</div>
<div>
<div><br>On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:05 AM, Gary Crabtree <<a href="mailto:moscowlocksmith@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">moscowlocksmith@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br><br></div></div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>Once "he" becomes aware of said gun it becomes a powerful deterrent
to staying in your house much less helping himself to your belongings
or continued good health.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>g<br><br></div>
<div>On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 6:56 AM, Joe
Campbell <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div>
<div>This is what listening to pop music can do to you! </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Paul: If he's in your house, then the gun was not a
deterrent.</div>
<div><br>On Feb 20, 2013, at 6:12 AM, <span>Sunil</span> <span>Ramalingam</span>
<<a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">But not in a judgmental way. I'm too busy singing to put
anybody down.<br><br><span>sr</span><br><br>
<div>
<div></div>
<div style="margin:5px 0px;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);line-height:0;font-size:0px;min-height:0px" readonly>
</div>From: <a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">jampot@roadrunner.com</a><br>To:
<a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a><br>CC:
<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>Subject:
Re: [Vision2020] <span>Hmmm</span> . .
.<br>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 06:02:11 -0800<br><br>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri">Now you're just <span>monkeeing</span> around.</font></div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri">g</font></div>
<div style="font:10pt/normal Tahoma;font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal">
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font><br></div>
<div style="background:rgb(245,245,245)">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span>Sunil</span> <span>Ramalingam</span></a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 19, 2013 11:07 PM</div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">vision 2020</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] <span>Hmmm</span> . . .</div></div></div>
<div><br></div>
<div dir="ltr">The premise of your post was that he was breaking into
homes when people were there. Now you're inventing his motive to kill
you. No, if he saw your face, he'd be a believer, not a
killer.<br><br><br><span>Sunil</span><br><br>
<div>
<div></div>
<div style="margin:5px 0px;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);line-height:0;font-size:0px;min-height:0px" readonly>
</div>Date: Tue, 19 Feb
2013 22:56:57 -0800<br>From: <a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br>To:
<a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a><br>CC:
<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>Subject:
Re: [Vision2020] <span>Hmmm</span> . .
.<br><br>
<div><br>It didn't say he was. If he did, though, I'd want to be
able to protect myself if he ran across me in a home he thought was
empty and he got it through his head that I had to die because I'd
seen his face. Or maybe he's desperate, and now he's willing to
try hitting a house that is occupied but looks like he could rob it
regardless.<br><br>It's a tool of preparedness. I'd rather not
assume that he's harmless if he's breaking into houses and robbing
them. If my assumption is wrong, I could die. I'd rather
not throw away my chance at survival because "<span>OMG</span>! Guns are bad!"<br><br>It doesn't mean, by
the way, that I'd just shoot this guy for breaking into my
house. But a loaded weapon is a good deterrent, and if it turns
out my life is at stake, I'd rather have a gun than a shoe I could
throw at him, or whatever I happened to have at hand.<br><br>This
isn't rocket science. Be prepared. It's the good old Boy
Scout motto. I also have a smoke detector and a fire
extinguisher.<br><br>Don't let the "guns are killing our kids!"
narrative drive your views.<br><br>Paul<br><br>On 02/19/2013 10:43 PM,
<span>Sunil</span> <span>Ramalingam</span> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Paul,<br><br>Where does it say he's breaking into homes
when people are in? I had a lot of burglary cases, and my mistakenly
charged clients were usually alleged to have entered homes when no
one was there. Lots easier to leave with stuff that way, said the
authorities.<br><br><span>Sunil</span><br><br>
<div>
<div style="margin:5px 0px;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);line-height:0;font-size:0px;min-height:0px" readonly>
</div>Date: Tue, 19
Feb 2013 19:02:25 -0800<br>From: <a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br>To:
<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a><br>CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>Subject:
Re: [Vision2020] <span>Hmmm</span> . .
.<br><br>
<div><br>What's paranoid about locking up when you're out and being
ready to defend yourself when you're at home when there is a known
burglar in the area? Being prepared is not the same thing as
being paranoid. If someone is crazy enough to break into your
home while you are there, you can go ahead and classify that as a
situation fraught with danger, in which case having some means to
protect yourself might be called for. There are plenty of
reasonable scenarios where a would-be burglar happens upon a member
of the household when he thought the place was empty that could end
up very badly for the person he stumbled upon. If the burglar
knew you were at home and invaded the home anyway, then you've
definitely got a problem if you are happily unarmed.<br><br>Better
to have that gun when you need it than not. If guns frighten
you, which I find hard to believe because of your military
background, then at least pick up a good aluminum baseball
bat.<br><br>Do you think I'm paranoid because I keep a set of jumper
cables in my trunk in case my battery dies and I need a jump from a
kind stranger? Are you one of those people that joyously flit
from situation to situation relying on the gods to keep you out of
trouble?<br><br>Paul<br><br>On 02/19/2013 01:18 PM, Tom Hansen
wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote>
<div><<span>ATT</span>00001></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Paranoia . . . self-<span>destroya</span>.<br><br>
<div><span>Seeya</span> round town,
Moscow, because . . .</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>"Moscow Cares"</div>
<div><a href="http://www.moscowcares.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.moscowcares.com/</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>Tom "Proud to be a Filthy Liberal Scum" Hansen</div>
<div>Moscow, Idaho</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>"<span style="font-size:medium">There's room at the top they
are telling you still</span><span style="font-size:medium"> </span></div><span style="font-size:medium">But first you must learn how to smile as
you kill </span><br style="font-size:medium"><span style="font-size:medium">If you want to be like the folks on the
hill."</span></div>
<div><font size="3"><span><br></span></font></div>
<div><font size="3"><span>- John Lennon<br></span></font>
<div> </div></div></div><br>
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</blockquote></div><br><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
</font></span></div></div></blockquote></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<br><a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br>
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</font></span></div>
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