<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>Yours is only one interpretation of several different Second Amendment issues involved:<br><br></div>Google: "Second Amendment" interpretation<br><br></div>You will see others, and with a more refined search find how the U.S. Supreme Court's interpretation of the meaning of the Second Amendment has evolved to its present holding, which is likely to further evolve. Even more enlightening is how the interpretations of the Supreme Court's interpretations can differ radically.<br>
<br></div><div>Here's another hint; one that Joe has made repeatedly: The phrase "shall not be infringed" is not interpreted as absolute as it sounds, like all other rights, conflict with other rights and constitutional language force changes and limitations.<br>
<br></div><div>You can see this by Googling: Conflict Resolution "U.S. Constitution" <br></div><div>or Googling some other similar phrase.<br><br></div><div>Constitutional law, and the differing/evolving interpretations of the Constitution over time by the courts is a complex matter and not nearly and straight forward ir would appear to be. I recommend reading a primer on the subject as well as the above Googling to learn that saying "this is what the constitution means" is like saying "this is what Jesus/God/Mohammed/Allah/etc meant, though arguably not quite as convoluted.<br>
<br>w.<br></div><div><br></div>w.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div><br>
The "well-regulated militia" part is an explanatory clause
denoting one reason why the inherent right to keep and bear arms
shouldn't be infringed. Doing so would take away from our ability
to defend our country and ourselves. <br>
<br>
The idea of the Bill of Rights isn't to list the rights you do
have, but to delineate exactly which rights the Federal government
can limit and to what degree. For the second amendment, it's
pretty much wide open. "The right of the people to keep and bear
arms shall not be infringed" is pretty straight-forward. "A well
regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state"
is a reason that has been provided as to why the right to keep and
bear arms should not be infringed.<br>
<br>
Putting it in the Bill of Rights means that it is a right that the
founding fathers thought was important enough to be clear about
how it shouldn't be infringed.<br>
<br>
That's the way I see it, anyway. Do you read it another way?<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Paul</font></span><div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
On 02/13/2013 04:53 PM, Art Deco wrote:<br>
</div></div></div><div><div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>I said nothing of the sort. I was discussing the
problems of interpretation.<br>
<br>
</div>
The crazies I referred to are the groups running around in the
woods in Idaho and other places calling themselves militia
believing they are what the Constitution referred to.<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
w.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 4:56 PM, Matt
Decker <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mattd2107@hotmail.com" target="_blank">mattd2107@hotmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
Art,<br>
<br>
So we shouldn't have any guns at all?<br>
<br>
"Crazies" like the 90% of gun owners who have postitive
contributions to society? Like the numerous former
military who like to have a few guns for fun. <br>
<br>
MD<br>
<br>
<div>
<hr>Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:08:11 -0500<br>
From: <a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
<div>
<div><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Dorner and Gun Control<br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>@Matt,<br>
<br>
</div>
The meaning of the Second Amendment is
ambiguous. There are huge disagreements
about what it means.<br>
<br>
</div>
Google: "Second Amendment" interpretation<br>
<br>
</div>
For example, the word militia is singular, not
plural. This most likely means that the frames
thought there be only one militia ostensibly
under government control. Not a whole bunches
of crazies running around on their own claiming
to be sovereign bodies.<br>
<br>
w.<br>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div>On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Matt
Decker <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mattd2107@hotmail.com" target="_blank">mattd2107@hotmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
Joe,<br>
<br>
I can agree that guns can be dangerous,
less likely in the right hands. Mistakes
happen though. In the LAPD instance, a
very bad one. I'm sure those officers
will be punished. We agree if guns can
be dangerous, should we remove all of
them? If no, then why? Pistols are used
in the majority of all gun related
deaths. If yes, why? Should we really
open up the can of worms against our
founding fathers principles. Neither,
then why? <br>
<br>
We agree gun violence is bad.
Over 11,000 gun related homicides
occurred in 2012. In my opinion, the
type of gun used matters little. All
assualt type weapons(AR15, AK47, etc),
dad's hunting rifles, and all types of
shotguns accounted for 8% of the 11,000
murders in 2012. Yet our President keeps
pushing for common sense approach.
Common sense this and that. I don't
believe his approach will solve the
problem. Banning the guns that look mean
will have little to do with our homicide
rate. A common sense arguement would be
looking at the preferred weopon.
Pistols.<br>
<br>
How do we solve this? Hell I don't know,
but I feel that our society as a
whole is turning to a darker page. It
starts at home. Parents must raise their
children to respect others and be held
accountable. Not to point fingers or sue
because they can. As parents we should
all monitor are children on what they
watch, play, or listen too. My kids are
not allowed to watch R rated movies. I
also teach them to be self dependant,
not too rely on others. I feel that too
many rely on the government too
heavily. Use them when you need, but
not as a crutch. People these days are
too sensitive or PC. Say it like it is,
but respect others while doing it. It
starts from home. Single. I don't care.
No dad? So what. How many gay
female couples are raising their
children properly without a dad. We as
parents must raise our children
properly. That means with guns as well.
I own numerous guns, and my children
know the do's and dont's.<br>
<br>
As I've stated before, gun control is a
complex issue. I don't have all the
answers, but I do think some ideas could
help.<br>
<br>
-Harder back ground checks for purchases
of guns, have a shared data network that
works<br>
-Harder back ground checks for the
applications of concealed weapons permit<br>
-Legalize weed<br>
-educate our youth on gun safety<br>
-enforce current laws, punish those who
break the law <br>
-mental health is huge <br>
<br>
The former Marine that recently shot and
killed hero Navy Seal Chris Kyle was at
the VA twice for implying he would shoot
others and kill himself should have been
a pretty f'n big red flag that something
is off. How Whitney Houston had flags at
half mass and Kyle didn't is another
indicator that our society has it's
morales all messed up, that's another
topic though. Back on track. Mental
health needs to be addressed. As Art
stated, we don't currently have the
money for it. We should strive to make
sure those people get help or are
closely monitored. We have the ability
in the military, so let's make sure our
returning hero's come home mentally
sound. PTSD is a huge upcoming problem
for us and we need to make sure our
prior military get all the help they
need.<br>
<br>
For me though Joe it starts at home. <br>
<br>
Take care,<span><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Matt<br>
</font></span>
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<hr>Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 00:40:26
-0800<br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Dorner and
Gun Control<br>
From: <a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:mattd2107@hotmail.com" target="_blank">mattd2107@hotmail.com</a><br>
CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a></div>
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
Thanks for the comments -- Jeff
(which I agree with totally) and
Matt. As Jeff suggested, I'd have
been better off leaving out the
gun control issues, so I'll do
that for now!<br>
<br>
My apologies to the LAPD. I didn't
mean to demean them. My point was
-- rather -- even skilled,
respected officers can make
mistakes. Thus, guns are
dangerous. It is really so hard to
accept that guns are dangerous?
Can we all just accept that and
continue the debate from that
point? Or do I have to argue that
guns are dangerous?<br>
<br>
Certainly how folks are raised and
mental health have something to do
with gun violence, too. But how
much control do we have over how
people are raised? Do you want to
pass laws to ensure that parents
raise their children correctly?
That seems wrong. Should we
incarcerate the insane? Fine. Get
the taxes to fund it. Democrats
can't. Maybe we can put the insane
in prison. We seem to be willing
to pay for that. You've spotted
the problems, perhaps, but what is
the solution?<br>
<br>
Either you think gun violence is a
problem or you don't. I think it
is a problem. Then the matter is
how to deal with it. You say the
problem is bad parenting or
insanity. Others say video games.
But does that tell us how to deal
with it? Can we keep the number
and accessibility of guns the
same, but get rid of video games,
and then the problem will go away?
Of course you don't think that.
Nor did you suggest it. But what
did you suggest? How do you think
we should solve this social
problem of gun violence? Or do you
think it is not a problem?<br>
<br>
Thanks and hope you are well Matt
-- and Jeff.<br>
<br>
<div>On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 12:08
AM, Matt Decker <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mattd2107@hotmail.com" target="_blank">mattd2107@hotmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
Granted it's late, but a
couple of thoughts Joe.<br>
<br>
-LAPD? Really? I have a
couple of good friends on
the force down there. To
imply that the majority of
the boys in blue are
nothing but humble and
unselfish is downright
degrading.<br>
<br>
-Any gun in the wrong
hands creates mayhem. It
doesn't matter what type.<br>
<br>
-what guns? Pistols? Or
the AR 15s that killed
about 300 last year.
11,000 killed last year.<br>
<br>
-When will we look at
society and how we are
raised instead of blaiming
everyone else. Raise your
kids proper.<br>
<br>
-Mental health<br>
<br>
-Just imagine if a pissed
off ex-cop can do this,
what would a battalion of
former Marines do when
they get pissed? Lack of
VA support and taking away
the rights they fought
for. <br>
<br>
-How is it that no one on
this site ever talked
about Chris Kyle? The guy
is a hero and yet not one
post? Whitney Houston gets
half mass, but not Kyle?<br>
<br>
Granted Joe, not all these
are addressed to you but
just venting.<br>
<br>
<br>
That's it for now.<br>
<br>
MD<br>
<div>
<hr>Date: Tue, 12 Feb
2013 22:02:18 -0800<br>
From: <a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
Subject: [Vision2020]
Dorner and Gun Control
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
I'm watching the
Dorner episode
unfold and reading
the V2020 posts, and
it is pretty clear
no one knows what is
happening at this
point. Is he dead?
Not clear now,
according to CNN.<br>
<br>
Keep in mind that
this one man with a
few guns worked
skilled, trained
police officers into
a frenzy. How many
innocent victims
were shot? I don't
remember.<br>
<br>
But what I do know
is that skilled,
trained police
officers with guns
are a menace --
under the right
unfortunate
circumstances.
People blame the
cops but what would
you do? How would
you react to a
situation in which
you were a target?
I'm guessing, not
very well. Me
either.<br>
<br>
And you say guns are
safe? If they are in
the right hands?
What hands are
those? Not the LA
police.<br>
<br>
Guns are always a
risk. That's why gun
control is worthy of
consideration. Even
skilled, trained
police officers can
be a menace if the
circumstances are
unforgiving.<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
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<br>
-- <br>
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<br>
<a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br>
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<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<br>
<a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<br><a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br><br><img src="http://users.moscow.com/waf/WP%20Fox%2001.jpg"><br>
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