<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>My opinion is that there is no "correct" interpretation of the language of the Second Amendment.  The enforceable interpretation is that which is held at any given time by the U.S. Supreme court, which if you Goggled perspicaciously, has changed and evolved over time, and such change and evolution is likely to continue.<br>
<br></div>I have repeatedly on this forum that I believe in the right of self-defense, even lethal self-defense in some cases.  but I believe that ownership of semi-automatic weapons, especially those that can be converted to fully automatic ones [Google], and large capacity magazine should be banned as well a limit of one placed on the number of magazines owned.  I have posted numerous articles about the effects of the current gun ownership laws.<br>
<br></div>I do not believe that outside of the federal militia (now the army, navy, air force, etc) that the framers of the constitution ever intended for any citizens to have the amount of destructive firepower they are now allowed. We are not the enemy.  But that's my own interpretation among many held by others, and not one that can be apodictically defended or held.  The plasticity and ambiguity of language and the lack of access to the original framers prevent any certainty in this regard.<br>
<br></div>Again, you need to understand the actual complexities in the legal realm of construing the meaning of any law, not just the constitution.  You could go to some legal site such as FindLaw or paid site such as Lexus (available free at the UI Law library) and look up the general case law on construing language (sometimes found under construction, [but not building construction]).  Until you and some others in the community acquire this understanding, and are able discuss and argue within that context, you are just scattering chaff.<br>
<br>w.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Joe Campbell <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Wayne did tell you one part of his view, and it was in fact similar to something I've been telling you over and over again; yet you seem deaf to the point. I'll try again. (Some readers might want to turn on another station since the story is the same.)<br>

<br>Your interpretation, the NRA interpretation  is flawed. Specifically this interpretation:<div class="im"><br><br><div style="margin-left:40px">For the second amendment, it's
      pretty much wide open.  "The right of the people to keep and bear
      arms shall not be infringed" is pretty straight-forward.  "A well
      regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state"
      is a reason that has been provided as to why the right to keep and
      bear arms should not be infringed.<br></div><br></div>NO rights have in fact ever been interpreted as absolute; there are no absolute rights. Sales of fire arms, for instance, have in fact been restricted and will in fact be restricted at various times in the future. There is no philosophical, historical, moral, or legal basis for your interpretation.<br>

<br>Further, it would have been impossible for the founders to be clear in the Bill of Rights about exactly "how [the right] shouldn't be infringed." It doesn't say in the bill of rights for instance which kind of speech can or cannot be infringed. It leaves it open for us to decide; it leaves it open for us to discover new forms of harm that we might want to restrict, or new ways in which we might want to promote public welfare (as Wayne has pointed out).<br>

<br>The genius of the founding fathers is that they did not in fact produce a document like the one you suggest that they produced, with an insane view of rights, one that would allow us to continue to abuse our "rights" to the detriment of others. That's why your interpretation, the NRA interpretation is flawed.<br>

<br>That said, I'm leaning more toward thinking banning guns is not the way to go; I'm uncertain as to whether it would have any positive impact. I'm currently on the fence about the particular issue. My point is we could and should (say) ban semiautomatics IF it would reduce violence and/or promote public welfare. That is where we disagree. I think we need to talk about banning guns, review the evidence, look at other cases in which guns have been banned (Australia) and see whether it might work as well for us. In the end, we might end up determining that gun bans will do no good. But we don't know that now, prior to having this debate and conversation.<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5"><br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif">I'm more interested in what your opinion is.  I googled "Google, what is your opinion on the second amendment?" and all it came back with was other people's opinions on the second amendments and a rash of claims that Google is censoring shopping results to remove guns from the lists, which I thought was interesting.<br>

<br>Paul<br><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"> <div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"> <div dir="ltr">

 <font face="Arial"> <hr size="1">  <b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Art Deco <<a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a> <br>

 <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, February 14, 2013 4:48 AM<div><div><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] Dorner and Gun Control<br> </div></div>
</font> </div><div><div> <br><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>Yours is only one interpretation of several different Second Amendment issues involved:<br><br></div>Google: "Second Amendment" interpretation<br>

<br></div>You will see others, and with  a more refined search find how the U.S. Supreme Court's interpretation of the meaning of the Second Amendment has evolved to its present holding, which is likely to further evolve.  Even more enlightening is how the interpretations of the Supreme Court's interpretations can differ radically.<br>


<br></div><div>Here's another hint; one that Joe has made repeatedly:  The phrase "shall not be infringed" is not interpreted as absolute as it sounds, like all other rights, conflict with other rights and constitutional language force changes and limitations.<br>


<br></div><div>You can see this by Googling:  Conflict Resolution "U.S. Constitution" <br></div><div>or Googling some other similar phrase.<br><br></div><div>Constitutional law, and the differing/evolving interpretations of the Constitution over time by the courts is a complex matter and not nearly and straight forward ir would appear to be.  I recommend reading a primer on the subject as well as the above Googling to learn that saying "this is what the constitution means" is like saying "this is what Jesus/God/Mohammed/Allah/etc meant, though arguably not quite as convoluted.<br>


<br>w.<br></div><div><br></div>w.<br></div><div><br><br><div>On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>


<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div>
    <div><br>
      The "well-regulated militia" part is an explanatory clause
      denoting one reason why the inherent right to keep and bear arms
      shouldn't be infringed.  Doing so would take away from our ability
      to defend our country and ourselves.  <br>
      <br>
      The idea of the Bill of Rights isn't to list the rights you do
      have, but to delineate exactly which rights the Federal government
      can limit and to what degree.  For the second amendment, it's
      pretty much wide open.  "The right of the people to keep and bear
      arms shall not be infringed" is pretty straight-forward.  "A well
      regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state"
      is a reason that has been provided as to why the right to keep and
      bear arms should not be infringed.<br>
      <br>
      Putting it in the Bill of Rights means that it is a right that the
      founding fathers thought was important enough to be clear about
      how it shouldn't be infringed.<br>
      <br>
      That's the way I see it, anyway. Do you read it another way?<span><font color="#888888"><br>
      <br>
      Paul</font></span><div><div><br>
      <br>
      On 02/13/2013 04:53 PM, Art Deco wrote:<br>
    </div></div></div><div><div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>
          <div>I said nothing of the sort.  I was discussing the
            problems of interpretation.<br>
            <br>
          </div>
          The crazies I referred to are the groups running around in the
          woods in Idaho and other places calling themselves militia
          believing they are what the Constitution referred to.<br>
          <br>
          <br>
        </div>
        w.</div>
      <div><br>
        <br>
        <div>On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 4:56 PM, Matt
          Decker <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:mattd2107@hotmail.com" target="_blank">mattd2107@hotmail.com</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div>
              <div dir="ltr">
                Art,<br>
                 <br>
                So we shouldn't have any guns at all?<br>
                 <br>
                "Crazies" like the 90% of gun owners who have postitive
                contributions to society? Like the numerous former
                military who like to have a few guns for fun. <br>
                 <br>
                MD<br>
                 <br>
                <div>
                  <hr>Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:08:11 -0500<br>
                  From: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br>
                  To: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
                  <div>
                    <div><br>
                      Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Dorner and Gun Control<br>
                      <br>
                      <div dir="ltr">
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div>@Matt,<br>
                              <br>
                            </div>
                            The meaning of the Second Amendment is
                            ambiguous.  There are huge disagreements
                            about what it means.<br>
                            <br>
                          </div>
                          Google:  "Second Amendment" interpretation<br>
                          <br>
                        </div>
                        For example, the word militia is singular, not
                        plural.  This most likely means that the frames
                        thought there be only one militia ostensibly
                        under government control.  Not a whole bunches
                        of crazies running around on their own claiming
                        to be sovereign bodies.<br>
                        <br>
                        w.<br>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <div><br>
                        <br>
                        <div>On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Matt
                          Decker <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:mattd2107@hotmail.com" target="_blank">mattd2107@hotmail.com</a>></span>
                          wrote:<br>
                          <blockquote style="padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
                            <div>
                              <div dir="ltr">
                                Joe,<br>
                                 <br>
                                I can agree that guns can be dangerous,
                                less likely in the right hands. Mistakes
                                happen though. In the LAPD instance, a
                                very bad one. I'm sure those officers
                                will be punished. We agree if guns can
                                be dangerous, should we remove all of
                                them? If no, then why? Pistols are used
                                in the majority of all gun related
                                deaths. If yes, why? Should we really
                                open up the can of worms against our
                                founding fathers principles. Neither,
                                then why? <br>
                                 <br>
                                We agree gun violence is bad.
                                Over 11,000 gun related homicides
                                occurred in 2012. In my opinion, the
                                type of gun used matters little. All
                                assualt type weapons(AR15, AK47, etc),
                                dad's hunting rifles, and all types of
                                shotguns accounted for 8% of the 11,000
                                murders in 2012. Yet our President keeps
                                pushing for common sense approach.
                                Common sense this and that. I don't
                                believe his approach will solve the
                                problem. Banning the guns that look mean
                                will have little to do with our homicide
                                rate. A common sense arguement would be
                                looking at the preferred weopon.
                                Pistols.<br>
                                 <br>
                                How do we solve this? Hell I don't know,
                                but I feel that our society as a
                                whole is turning to a darker page. It
                                starts at home. Parents must raise their
                                children to respect others and be held
                                accountable. Not to point fingers or sue
                                because they can. As parents we should
                                all monitor are children on what they
                                watch, play, or listen too. My kids are
                                not allowed to watch R rated movies. I
                                also teach them to be self dependant,
                                not too rely on others. I feel that too
                                many rely on the government too
                                heavily. Use them when you need, but
                                not as a crutch. People these days are
                                too sensitive or PC. Say it like it is,
                                but respect others while doing it. It
                                starts from home. Single. I don't care.
                                No dad? So what. How many gay
                                female couples are raising their
                                children properly without a dad. We as
                                parents must raise our children
                                properly. That means with guns as well.
                                I own numerous guns, and my children
                                know the do's and dont's.<br>
                                 <br>
                                As I've stated before, gun control is a
                                complex issue. I don't have all the
                                answers, but I do think some ideas could
                                help.<br>
                                 <br>
                                -Harder back ground checks for purchases
                                of guns, have a shared data network that
                                works<br>
                                -Harder back ground checks for the
                                applications of concealed weapons permit<br>
                                -Legalize weed<br>
                                -educate our youth on gun safety<br>
                                -enforce current laws, punish those who
                                break the law <br>
                                -mental health is huge <br>
                                 <br>
                                The former Marine that recently shot and
                                killed hero Navy Seal Chris Kyle was at
                                the VA twice for implying he would shoot
                                others and kill himself should have been
                                a pretty f'n big red flag that something
                                is off. How Whitney Houston had flags at
                                half mass and Kyle didn't is another
                                indicator that our society has it's
                                morales all messed up, that's another
                                topic though. Back on track. Mental
                                health needs to be addressed. As Art
                                stated, we don't currently have the
                                money for it. We should strive to make
                                sure those people get help or are
                                closely monitored. We have the ability
                                in the military, so let's make sure our
                                returning hero's come home mentally
                                sound. PTSD is a huge upcoming problem
                                for us and we need to make sure our
                                prior military get all the help they
                                need.<br>
                                 <br>
                                For me though Joe it starts at home. <br>
                                 <br>
                                Take care,<span><font color="#888888"><br>
                                     <br>
                                    Matt<br>
                                  </font></span>
                                <div><br>
                                   <br>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <hr>Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 00:40:26
                                    -0800<br>
                                    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Dorner and
                                    Gun Control<br>
                                    From: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>
                                    To: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:mattd2107@hotmail.com" target="_blank">mattd2107@hotmail.com</a><br>
                                    CC: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a></div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div><br>
                                      <br>
                                      Thanks for the comments -- Jeff
                                      (which I agree with totally) and
                                      Matt. As Jeff suggested, I'd have
                                      been better off leaving out the
                                      gun control issues, so I'll do
                                      that for now!<br>
                                      <br>
                                      My apologies to the LAPD. I didn't
                                      mean to demean them. My point was
                                      -- rather -- even skilled,
                                      respected officers can make
                                      mistakes. Thus, guns are
                                      dangerous. It is really so hard to
                                      accept that guns are dangerous?
                                      Can we all just accept that and
                                      continue the debate from that
                                      point? Or do I have to argue that
                                      guns are dangerous?<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Certainly how folks are raised and
                                      mental health have something to do
                                      with gun violence, too. But how
                                      much control do we have over how
                                      people are raised? Do you want to
                                      pass laws to ensure that parents
                                      raise their children correctly?
                                      That seems wrong. Should we
                                      incarcerate the insane? Fine. Get
                                      the taxes to fund it. Democrats
                                      can't. Maybe we can put the insane
                                      in prison. We seem to be willing
                                      to pay for that. You've spotted
                                      the problems, perhaps, but what is
                                      the solution?<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Either you think gun violence is a
                                      problem or you don't. I think it
                                      is a problem. Then the matter is
                                      how to deal with it. You say the
                                      problem is bad parenting or
                                      insanity. Others say video games.
                                      But does that tell us how to deal
                                      with it? Can we keep the number
                                      and accessibility of guns the
                                      same, but get rid of video games,
                                      and then the problem will go away?
                                      Of course you don't think that.
                                      Nor did you suggest it. But what
                                      did you suggest? How do you think
                                      we should solve this social
                                      problem of gun violence? Or do you
                                      think it is not a problem?<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Thanks and hope you are well Matt
                                      -- and Jeff.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      <div>On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 12:08
                                        AM, Matt Decker <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:mattd2107@hotmail.com" target="_blank">mattd2107@hotmail.com</a>></span>
                                        wrote:<br>
                                        <blockquote style="padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
                                          <div>
                                            <div dir="ltr">
                                              Granted it's late, but a
                                              couple of thoughts Joe.<br>
                                               <br>
                                              -LAPD? Really? I have a
                                              couple of good friends on
                                              the force down there. To
                                              imply that the majority of
                                              the boys in blue are
                                              nothing but humble and
                                              unselfish is downright
                                              degrading.<br>
                                               <br>
                                              -Any gun in the wrong
                                              hands creates mayhem. It
                                              doesn't matter what type.<br>
                                               <br>
                                              -what guns? Pistols? Or
                                              the AR 15s that killed
                                              about 300 last year.
                                              11,000 killed last year.<br>
                                               <br>
                                              -When will we look at
                                              society and how we are
                                              raised instead of blaiming
                                              everyone else. Raise your
                                              kids proper.<br>
                                               <br>
                                              -Mental health<br>
                                               <br>
                                              -Just imagine if a pissed
                                              off ex-cop can do this,
                                              what would a battalion of
                                              former Marines do when
                                              they get pissed? Lack of
                                              VA support and taking away
                                              the rights they fought
                                              for. <br>
                                               <br>
                                              -How is it that no one on
                                              this site ever talked
                                              about Chris Kyle? The guy
                                              is a hero and yet not one 
                                              post? Whitney Houston gets
                                              half mass, but not Kyle?<br>
                                               <br>
                                              Granted Joe, not all these
                                              are addressed to you but
                                              just venting.<br>
                                               <br>
                                               <br>
                                              That's it for now.<br>
                                               <br>
                                              MD<br>
                                              <div>
                                                <hr>Date: Tue, 12 Feb
                                                2013 22:02:18 -0800<br>
                                                From: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>
                                                To: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
                                                Subject: [Vision2020]
                                                Dorner and Gun Control
                                                <div>
                                                  <div><br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    I'm watching the
                                                    Dorner episode
                                                    unfold and reading
                                                    the V2020 posts, and
                                                    it is pretty clear
                                                    no one knows what is
                                                    happening at this
                                                    point. Is he dead?
                                                    Not clear now,
                                                    according to CNN.<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    Keep in mind that
                                                    this one man with a
                                                    few guns worked
                                                    skilled, trained
                                                    police officers into
                                                    a frenzy. How many
                                                    innocent victims
                                                    were shot? I don't
                                                    remember.<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    But what I do know
                                                    is that skilled,
                                                    trained police
                                                    officers with guns
                                                    are a menace --
                                                    under the right
                                                    unfortunate
                                                    circumstances.
                                                    People blame the
                                                    cops but what would
                                                    you do? How would
                                                    you react to a
                                                    situation in which
                                                    you were a target?
                                                    I'm guessing, not
                                                    very well. Me
                                                    either.<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    And you say guns are
                                                    safe? If they are in
                                                    the right hands?
                                                    What hands are
                                                    those? Not the LA
                                                    police.<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    Guns are always a
                                                    risk. That's why gun
                                                    control is worthy of
                                                    consideration. Even
                                                    skilled, trained
                                                    police officers can
                                                    be a menace if the
                                                    circumstances are
                                                    unforgiving.<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
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                                        </blockquote>
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        <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br>
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