<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:Courier New, courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div><span>While I have no intent to <span id="misspell-0"><span>squelch</span></span> an important conversation our nation needs to have, I thought I would send a link of the V2020 Mission Statement. </span></div><div><a href="http://vision2020.moscow.com/mission.asp" saprocessedanchor="true">http://vision2020.moscow.com/mission.asp</a></div><div> </div><div>Anyhow, good to read lyrics by Phil Ochs again.</div> <div style="font-family: Courier New, courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <div style="margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); height: 0px; line-height: 0; font-size: 0px;" class="hr"
contentEditable="false" readonly="true"></div> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> "vision2020-request@moscow.com" <vision2020-request@moscow.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> vision2020@moscow.com <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, February 11, 2013 9:56 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Vision2020 Digest, Vol 80, Issue 136<br> </font> </div> <br>Send Vision2020 mailing list submissions to<br> <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br><br>To subscribe or <span id="misspell-1" class="mark">unsubscribe</span> via the World Wide Web, visit<br> <a href="http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/vision2020" target="_blank" saprocessedanchor="true"
original_target="http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/vision2020">http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/vision2020</a><br>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br> <a href="mailto:vision2020-request@moscow.com" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="mailto:vision2020-request@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:vision2020-request@moscow.com">vision2020-request@moscow.com</a><br><br>You can reach the person managing the list at<br> <a href="mailto:vision2020-owner@moscow.com" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="mailto:vision2020-owner@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:vision2020-owner@moscow.com">vision2020-owner@moscow.com</a><br><br>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of Vision2020 digest..."<br><br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: drones (Art Deco)<br> 2. Re: drones (Tom
Hansen)<br><br><br>----------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>Message: 1<br>Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 12:50:28 -0500<br>From: Art Deco <<a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>><br>To: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] drones<br>Message-ID:<br> <CAB8<span id="misspell-2" class="mark">VJX</span>6<span id="misspell-3" class="mark">YJ</span>+<span id="misspell-4" class="mark">TKUtrBK</span>+<span id="misspell-5" class="mark">kAbg</span>6<span id="misspell-6" class="mark">ZJSf</span>+<a href="mailto:73X447fkdTq1RciAX_58Pg@mail.gmail.com" saprocessedanchor="true"
original_target="mailto:73x447fkdtq1rciax_58pg@mail.gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:73X447fkdTq1RciAX_58Pg@mail.gmail.com">73X447fkdTq1RciAX_58Pg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; <span id="misspell-7" class="mark">charset</span>="<span id="misspell-8" class="mark">iso</span>-8859-1"<br><br>This is a difficult issue to deal with.<br><br>I agree with those that believe that drone attacks should not occur without<br>meaningful due process except when emergencies occur where timing makes<br>such a due process review impossible. However, such a call about such an<br>emergency is a judgment call and open to error.<br><br>Fact: There are those would seek to destroy, kill, damage, etc our country<br>and/or its overseas assets including US citizens and close allies.<br><br>The main conflicts occur in this issue because most of us believe in the<br>right of self-defense, personal and national. The <span id="misspell-9"
class="mark">CIC</span>, and in some cases,<br>the <span id="misspell-10" class="mark">CIC</span> in accordance with congress, is the ultimate authority on the use<br>of force in self-defense. The Oath of Office makes the <span id="misspell-11" class="mark">CIC</span> ultimately<br>responsible of the security of our country.<br><br>9/11 forever changed the nature of the parameters of self-defense. Those<br>parameters now include seeking out and removing those agents who pose not<br>only a credible eminent threat but a credible future threat. It would be a<br>nicer world if those agents could be removed via an open, effective justice<br>system. It's not a nicer world.<br><br>Hence, removal is basically done by sequestering w/o real due process or<br>destruction. Sequestering is not always possible or practical. Hence,<br>destruction is an option, and, I believe based on the conduct of several<br>groups of
terrorists and their supporters, a necessary one. This is not a<br>nice world.<br><br>Given that, what methods of destruction can or should be used.<br><br>Drones are one of those methods. They minimize the loss of American and/or<br>American allies lives and also expenditures.<br><br>The downside is that they can kill innocent people whether by lack of<br>oversight, incorrect intelligence information, or the judgment made that<br>the loss of innocent lives justifies the destruction of agents/facilities<br>in particular cases.<br><br>The trade-off is American lives/security against that of terrorists and<br>innocents. It's not a nice world<br><br>Joe will appreciate this: This kind of trade-off has been a philosophical<br>issue for some time. A criticism of Utilitarianism is that if <span id="misspell-12" class="mark">everyone's</span><br>happiness could be maximized if only one randomly chosen person would be<br>subjected
to an ongoing ordeal of extreme punishment and torture, we should<br>not give such a consent.<br><br>Obviously, there is vast disagreement on whether or not such consent should<br>be given. Unfortunately, like many ethical disputes, there is no argument<br>on either side which is definitive; only some are more persuasive than<br>others to any given person.<br><br>Never-the-less, it is important to raise and to rigorously and<br>intelligently discuss this issue. Perhaps we can find a way to neutralize<br>more baddies at he cost of less innocents. Let us hope and work toward<br>that goal. It's not a nice world. People are trying to harm, maim. or<br>kill you.<br><br>My own opinion is that drone strikes are sometimes leads to the least harm<br>vs. a much greater harm, and hence, we ought not disallow them. However,<br>their use ought be very carefully weighed, and due process applied on a<br>case by case basis within in
carefully thought out parameters. The problem<br>is that given the state of our knowledge at any given time and possible<br>risks involved by non-action, this might not always be possible.<br><br>I certainly do not expect agreement with this, but given the above I hope<br>that it generates discussions and actions which results eventually in a<br>nicer world.<br><br>w.<br><br><br><br><br>On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 11:56 AM, Joe Campbell <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>>wrote:<br><br>> This is the trouble with wasting time on philosophical debates like gun<br>> control and gay marriage. There are things that all of us should rally<br>> around, issues that matter.<br>><br>><br>> On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 6:10 AM, <span id="misspell-13" class="mark">Sunil</span> <span
id="misspell-14" class="mark">Ramalingam</span> <<br>> <a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" ymailto="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>><br>>> I agree with you. There isn't any authority to pursue this and yet<br>>> people just accept it. I was debating this with a high school classmate who<br>>> is very far right. There are no domestic policies where he will support<br>>> Obama, or believe a word he says. But he's behind this policy. He doesn't<br>>> need proof, he says just go <span id="misspell-15" class="mark">kiill</span> them.<br>>><br>>> Democrats have sanctioned this since Obama took power, and now it's a<br>>> bipartisan policy. Makes it clear that many protests while Bush was<br>>> President were political, not rooted in principle. And the only
Republican<br>>> running for president who opposed this was Ron Paul, who was marginalized<br>>> for his domestic policies. There was no real analysis of what he was saying<br>>> about foreign policy, where we could have had an important discussion about<br>>> the issue.<br>>><br>>> Underlying all this are a number of things. First, people keep saying<br>>> 'We're at war,' but they don't say that it's a war that apparently will go<br>>> on forever. Will these powers ever be restrained? Not if the executive<br>>> wants to hang on to the power, and the People refuse to challenge him on<br>>> this. Second, shouldn't we be asking 'Why do we have bases around the<br>>> world? Is this an Empire? Why do we have one? What does it cost us? What<br>>> else could we be doing with that money?'<br>>><br>>> <span id="misspell-16" class="mark">Sunil</span><br>>><br>>> >
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 13:45:01 -0800<br>>> > From: <a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br>>> > To: <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>>> > Subject: [Vision2020] drones<br>>><br>>> ><br>>> > Now that we seem to be done chortling over local people protesting<br>>> > something peacefully, I thought maybe we could talk about the whole<br>>> > drone program.<br>>> ><br>>> > First of all, I can't get past the lack of due process. There are no<br>>> > trials, not even the kind of for-show trials you'd expect to see in<br>>> > third-world tinpot dictatorships. We are not at war with
any of the<br>>> > countries in which we have been killing these people in. There are no<br>>> > attempts I've seen to work with Yemen and Pakistan to bring these<br>>> people<br>>> > in for trial. According to a Stanford law professor I was listening to<br>>> > on NPR a little while ago, our President signs off on all the drone<br>>> > strikes of specific individuals, which account for about 2% of the<br>>> drone<br>>> > strikes that happen. The other 98% are people that they can't identify<br>>> > that appear to be terrorists doing whatever it is that terrorists do.<br>>> > There are whole communities in NW Pakistan that have drones flying<br>>> > overhead and nobody knows what sorts of behavior their remote pilots<br>>> are<br>>> > looking for in order to strike, causing them to keep their kids at home<br>>> > and has led to <span
id="misspell-17" class="mark">PTSD</span> amongst their populace. We are in effect<br>>> > terrorizing those communities ourselves.<br>>> ><br>>> > This whole program is just simply wrong on so many levels I can't even<br>>> > believe we as a country would entertain such an idea. Oh, yeah, this<br>>> > "oversight" came about only because they thought that Romney was about<br>>> > to become President. Talk about looking ahead.<br>>> ><br>>> > As for drone technology itself, I'd rather see the use of drones for<br>>> > precision strikes rather than having to put boots on the ground, but<br>>> > only in times where we can actually legally put boots on the ground and<br>>> > give our troops that kind of assignment.<br>>> ><br>>> > I think we're running into what I think of as the <span id="misspell-18" class="mark">taser</span> problem. <span
id="misspell-19" class="mark">Tasers</span><br>>> > were supposed to be a non-lethal weapon that would be used when all<br>>> > other choices were exhausted. Instead of replacing the need for a cop<br>>> > to shoot someone, they replaced the need for a cop to whack someone on<br>>> > the head with their night stick. This is the same thing. They are so<br>>> > easy, no one we apparently think of as human dies, and the drone<br>>> > operators can turn their consoles off at the end of their shift and go<br>>> > have a nice dinner at the Olive Garden.<br>>> ><br>>> > Any thoughts?<br>>> ><br>>> > Paul<br>>> ><br>>> > =======================================================<br>>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>>> > serving the communities of the <span id="misspell-20" class="mark">Palouse</span>
since 1994.<br>>> > <a href="http://www.fsr.net/" target="_blank" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net/</a><br>>> > <span id="misspell-21" class="mark">mailto</span>:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>>> > =======================================================<br>>><br>>> =======================================================<br>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>>> serving the communities of the <span id="misspell-22" class="mark">Palouse</span> since 1994.<br>>> <a href="http://www.fsr.net/" target="_blank" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net/</a><br>>>
<span id="misspell-23" class="mark">mailto</span>:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>>> =======================================================<br>>><br>><br>><br>> =======================================================<br>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> serving the communities of the <span id="misspell-24" class="mark">Palouse</span> since 1994.<br>> <a href="http://www.fsr.net/" target="_blank" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net/</a><br>> <span id="misspell-25" class="mark">mailto</span>:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" saprocessedanchor="true"
original_target="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>> =======================================================<br>><br><br><br><br>-- <br>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<br><a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <<a href="http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20130211/f1e339f1/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20130211/f1e339f1/attachment-0001.html">http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20130211/f1e339f1/attachment-0001.html</a>><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Message: 2<br>Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013
09:56:28 -0800<br>From: Tom Hansen <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>><br>To: Steven <span id="misspell-26" class="mark">Basoa</span> <<a href="mailto:sbasoa@moscow.com" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="mailto:sbasoa@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:sbasoa@moscow.com">sbasoa@moscow.com</a>><br>Cc: vision 2020 <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] drones<br>Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:A4EACCDD-6F8B-4425-A0F1-B1AE0A9A77B5@moscow.com" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="mailto:a4eaccdd-6f8b-4425-a0f1-b1ae0a9a77b5@moscow.com"
ymailto="mailto:A4EACCDD-6F8B-4425-A0F1-B1AE0A9A77B5@moscow.com">A4EACCDD-6F8B-4425-A0F1-B1AE0A9A77B5@moscow.com</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; <span id="misspell-27" class="mark">charset</span>="us-<span id="misspell-28" class="mark">ascii</span>"<br><br>I couldn't agree more, Mr. <span id="misspell-29" class="mark">Basoa</span>.<br><br>There simply is no more appropriate song than . . .<br><br>"Cops of the World" by Phil <span id="misspell-30" class="mark">Ochs</span><br><a href="http://www.tomandrodna.com/songs/Cops_of_the_World_Phil_Ochs.mp3" target="_blank" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="http://www.tomandrodna.com/songs/cops_of_the_world_phil_ochs.mp3">http://www.tomandrodna.com/songs/Cops_of_the_World_Phil_Ochs.mp3</a><br> <br><span id="misspell-31" class="mark">Seeya</span> round town, Moscow, because . . .<br><br>"Moscow Cares"<br><a href="http://www.moscowcares.com/" target="_blank" saprocessedanchor="true"
original_target="http://www.moscowcares.com">http://www.moscowcares.com/</a><br> <br>Tom Hansen<br>Moscow, Idaho<br><br>"There's room at the top they are telling you still <br>But first you must learn how to smile as you kill <br>If you want to be like the folks on the hill."<br><br>- John Lennon<br> <br><br>On Feb 11, 2013, at 9:32 AM, Steven <span id="misspell-32" class="mark">Basoa</span> <<a href="mailto:sbasoa@moscow.com" saprocessedanchor="true" original_target="mailto:sbasoa@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:sbasoa@moscow.com">sbasoa@moscow.com</a>> wrote:<br><br>> Sadly, almost 50 years later, this tune still rings true:<br>> <br>> Cops of The World <br>> by Phil <span id="misspell-33" class="mark">Ochs</span><br>> <br>> Come, get out of the way, boys <br>> Quick, get out of the way <br>> You'd better watch what you say, boys <br>> Better watch what you say <br>> We've rammed in your harbor and
tied to your port <br>> And our pistols are hungry and our tempers are short <br>> So bring your daughters around to the port <br>> 'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys <br>> We're the Cops of the World <br>> We pick and choose as please, boys <br>> Pick and choose as please <br>> You'd best get down on your knees, boys <br>> Best get down on your knees <br>> We're hairy and horny and ready to shack <br>> And we don't care if you're yellow or black <br>> Just take off your clothes and lay down on your back <br>> 'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys <br>> We're the Cops of the World <br>> Our boots are needing a shine, boys <br>> Boots are needing a shine <br>> But our Coca-Cola is fine, boys <br>> Coca-Cola is fine <br>> We've got to protect all our citizens fair <br>> So we'll send a battalion for everyone there <br>> And maybe we'll leave in a couple of years <br>> 'Cause we're the
Cops of the World, boys <br>> We're the Cops of the World <br>> And dump the reds in a pile, boys <br>> Dump the reds in a pile <br>> You'd better wipe off that smile, boys <br>> Better wipe off that smile <br>> We'll spit through the streets of the cities we wreck <br>> And we'll find you a leader that you can't elect <br>> Those treaties we signed were a pain in the neck <br>> 'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys <br>> We're the Cops of the World <br>> And clean the johns with a rag, boys <br>> Clean the johns with a rag <br>> If you like you can use your flag, boys <br>> If you like you can use your flag <br>> We've got too much money we're looking for toys <br>> And guns will be guns and boys will be boys <br>> But we'll gladly pay for all we destroy <br>> 'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys <br>> We're the Cops of the World <br>> Please stay off of the grass, boys <br>> Please
stay off of the grass <br>> Here's a kick in the ass, boys <br>> Here's a kick in the ass <br>> We'll smash down your doors, we don't bother to knock <br>> We've done it before, so why all the shock <br>> We're the biggest and the toughest kids on the block <br>> And we're the Cops of the World, boys <br>> We're the Cops of the World <br>> And when we butchered your sons, boys <br>> When we butchered your sons <br>> Have a stick of our gum, boys <br>> Have a stick of our bubble gum <br>> We own half the world, oh say can you see <br>> And the name for our profits is democracy <br>> So, like it or not, you will have to be free <br>> 'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys <br>> We're the Cops of the World<br>-------------- next part --------------<br>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>URL: <<a href="http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20130211/28bfae9f/attachment.html"
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ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>=======================================================<br><br>End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 80, Issue 136<br>*******************************************<br><br><br> </div> </div> </div></body></html>