<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>Here's the problems:<br><br></div>1. It's not clear what Jesus allegedly said. The Jesus Seminar, composed of many of the most prominent biblical scholars today, claim that at least 85% of sayings/words attributed to Jesus in the New Testament were never uttered by him. Evangelists disagree -- unfortunately, evangelistic scholarly attempts are limited to what the Bible actually says, not a critical examination of the origins of the texts, the problems of inconsistencies within the texts and with other historical data and beliefs, the problems of language, the problems of the canonization of the texts, etc.<br>
<br></div><div>The dueling scripture between Tom and Gary nicely offer a tiny microcosmic peek at the problem of claiming anything about what Jesus actually said and/or meant.<br></div><div><br></div>The earliest of the New Testament texts, the Synoptic Gospels were not written until at earliest estimates about 40 years after the death of Jesus. If you ever have experimented with how stories change upon repetition, especially when strong beliefs are at stake, then you would hold all alleged sayings of Jesus suspect.<br>
<br></div>2. Many Christians hold Jesus up as the Prince of Peace -- "peace on Earth, Good Will Toward Man", etc. Mnay pacifist movements are premised on the anti conflict views which they attribute to Jesus. On the other hand the alleged words of Jesus have been used to justify wars and other horrible acts of violence, torture, and death.<br>
<br></div>You pays your money, you takes your choice. Don't look to collect though as it doesn't appear to be a bet that can be settled.<br><br></div>To further see what this WWJS question invokes Google: "gun control" Jesus<br>
<br></div>Amusing, if nothing else, and telling evidence against the claim of the Bible being the word of some perfect, all powerful God.<br><br></div>w.<br><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><br><br></div></div></div></div>
</div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Tom Hansen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>Gee, g -</div><div><br></div><div>When you post something, post all pertinent portions (as well as its source), ok?</div>
<div><br></div><div>-------------------------------------</div><div><br></div><div><div style="margin-top:10px;margin-bottom:15px"><h3 style="margin:0px"><font size="3"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Matthew 10:34-42</span></font></h3>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">New International Version (NIV)</span></p></div><div><p><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><span><sup style="font-weight:bold;vertical-align:top">34 </sup>“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.</span> <span><sup style="font-weight:bold;vertical-align:top">35 </sup>For I have come to turn</span></span></p>
<div style="margin-top:1em;margin-left:1em;padding-left:2.6em;margin-bottom:1em"><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><span><span>“‘a man against his father,</span></span><br>
<span><span> </span><span><span>a daughter against her mother,</span></span></span><br><span><span>a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law<sup value="(<a href="#cen-NIV-23453A" title="See cross-reference A">A</a>)" style="font-weight:bold;vertical-align:top"></sup>—</span></span><br>
<span><sup style="font-weight:bold;vertical-align:top;display:block">36 </sup><span> </span>a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’<sup value="[<a href="#fen-NIV-23454a" title="See footnote a">a</a>]" style="font-weight:bold;vertical-align:top">[<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+10%3A34-42&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23454a" title="See footnote a" style="text-decoration:none;vertical-align:top" target="_blank">a</a>]</sup><sup value="(<a href="#cen-NIV-23454B" title="See cross-reference B">B</a>)" style="font-weight:bold;vertical-align:top"></sup></span></span></p>
</div><p><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><span><sup style="font-weight:bold;vertical-align:top">37 </sup>“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.<sup value="(<a href="#cen-NIV-23455C" title="See cross-reference C">C</a>)" style="font-weight:bold;vertical-align:top"></sup></span> <span><sup style="font-weight:bold;vertical-align:top">38 </sup>Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.<sup value="(<a href="#cen-NIV-23456D" title="See cross-reference D">D</a>)" style="font-weight:bold;vertical-align:top"></sup></span> <span><sup style="font-weight:bold;vertical-align:top">39 </sup>Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.<sup value="(<a href="#cen-NIV-23457E" title="See cross-reference E">E</a>)" style="font-weight:bold;vertical-align:top"></sup></span></span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><span><sup style="font-weight:bold;vertical-align:top">40 </sup>“Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me,<sup value="(<a href="#cen-NIV-23458F" title="See cross-reference F">F</a>)" style="font-weight:bold;vertical-align:top"></sup> and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me.<sup value="(<a href="#cen-NIV-23458G" title="See cross-reference G">G</a>)" style="font-weight:bold;vertical-align:top"></sup></span><span><sup style="font-weight:bold;vertical-align:top">41 </sup>Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward.</span> <span><sup style="font-weight:bold;vertical-align:top">42 </sup>And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”</span></span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><span>- Matthew 10:34-42</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size:15px;line-height:19px;white-space:nowrap"><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+10%3A34-42&version=NIV" target="_blank">http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+10%3A34-42&version=NIV</a></span></p>
</div></div><div>-------------------------------------</div><div><br></div><div>Your posting kinda takes on a whole new meaning now, huh?<div class="im"><br><br><div>Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .</div><div><br></div>
<div>"Moscow Cares"</div><div><a href="http://www.MoscowCares.com" target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div><div> </div><div><div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div><br></div><div>"<span style="font-size:medium">There's room at the top they are telling you still</span><span style="font-size:medium"> </span></div>
<span style="font-size:medium">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill </span><br style="font-size:medium"><span style="font-size:medium">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div><div><font size="3"><span><br>
</span></font></div><div><font size="3"><span>- John Lennon<br></span></font><div> </div></div></div></div><div><br><div class="im">On Feb 6, 2013, at 6:36 AM, "Gary Crabtree" <<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div></div><div><div class="h5"><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div><font face="Calibri">Ah! One of my favorite pastimes, dueling Bible passages
used out of context.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><i>Matt. 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the
earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."</i></div>
<div><em></em> </div>
<div><em>g</em></div>
<div><font face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt Tahoma">
<div><br></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="thansen@moscow.com" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">Tom Hansen</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 05, 2013 9:39 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com
CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">Paul Rumelhart</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a title="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com
CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] WWJS?</div></div></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><span></span></div>
<div>
<div><span>"Then Jesus said to him, 'Put
your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the
sword.'"</span></div>
<div><span><br></span></div>
<div><span>- Matthew 26:52-54</span><span><br></span><br>
<div>Seeya round town, Moscow, because .
. .</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>"Moscow Cares"</div>
<div><a href="http://www.MoscowCares.com" target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>Tom Hansen</div>
<div>Moscow, Idaho</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>"<span style="FONT-SIZE:medium">There's
room at the top they are telling you still</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:medium"> </span></div><span style="FONT-SIZE:medium">But
first you must learn how to smile as you kill </span><br style="FONT-SIZE:medium"><span style="FONT-SIZE:medium">If
you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div>
<div><font size="3"><span><br></span></font></div>
<div><font size="3"><span>-
John Lennon<br></span></font>
<div> </div></div></div>
<div><br>On Feb 5, 2013, at 9:04 PM, Paul
Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div><br>In other words, I doubt He'd say much at
all. I don't picture him as someone who would get all worked up.
It would probably have something to do with judging the man's heart and not
the weight of iron at his hip. The apparent fact that you think he'd
find something wrong with this is the part that baffles me.<br><br>But then,
I'm not a biblical scholar.<br><br>Paul<br><br>On 02/05/2013 07:34 PM, Art
Deco wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>Somehow it appears that you missed the point of
WWJS?<br></div><br></div>w.<br></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:times new roman,new york,times,serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt"><br>People on this list
might find this very disconcerting, but there is actually nothing evil
about owning a firearm, or carrying a firearm for defense, or even in
using a firearm not against another person or their property (though they
might frown on firing one off in church). It's only when you are
shooting another person or their property with one that the moral
ambiguities arise.<br><br>Again, because I think this point is important,
"firearm" (not equal to) "evil".<br><br>Paul<br>
<div><span><br></span></div>
<div><br></div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:times new roman,new york,times,serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt">
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:times new roman,new york,times,serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">
<hr size="1">
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">From:</span></b> Art Deco <<a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a> <br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, February 5, 2013 2:41
PM<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">Subject:</span></b> [Vision2020]
WWJS?<br></font></div>
<div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">WWJS?<br><br><a href="http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/05/arkansas-to-allow-concealed-guns-in-churches/?hpt=hp_t2" target="_blank">http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/05/arkansas-to-allow-concealed-guns-in-churches/?hpt=hp_t2</a><br clear="all">
<div><br>-- <br>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<br><a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br><br><img src="http://users.moscow.com/waf/WP%20Fox%2001.jpg"><br>
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