<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>It is my strong belief that our founding fathers designed the constitution to be flexible, to be interpreted in a manner suitable for the times as our country continues to evolve.  What may have  been right at one time, may be wrong at another (i.e. Plessy v. Ferguson of 1896).</div><div><br></div><div>For the largest part, the US Supreme Court has been held responsible for interpreting the constitution.  Appointment to the US Supreme Court is a lifetime appointment (talk about job security).  So, as vacancies on the Supreme Court occur, the POTUS designates a candidate to fill that vacancy.  That candidate goes before a confirmation hearing.</div><div><br></div><div>I explained my opinion in such detail because, as I understand it . . . there may be two vacancies during President Obama's current administration.  I don't see President Obama appointing a Scalia-type justice.</div><div><br></div><div>Regardless of which gun-control legislation eventually becomes reality, a case (found to be in violation of that new law) will go before the nine justices of the US Supreme Court.  For those who do not wish to see gun-control, it would be favorable to them if this case went to the Supreme Court prior to President Obama's appointment(s).<br><br><div>Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .</div><div><br></div><div>"Moscow Cares"</div><div><a href="http://www.MoscowCares.com">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div><div>  </div><div><div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div><br></div><div>"<span style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">There's room at the top they are telling you still</span><span style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "> </span></div><span style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill </span><br style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "><span style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div><div><font size="3"><span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></font></div><div><font size="3"><span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">- John Lennon<br></span></font><div> </div></div></div><div><br>On Feb 5, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Art Deco <<a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div>@Paul:<br><br></div>I am unable to make a point beyond suggesting education to someone arguing, for example, about the Special Theory of Relativity who doesn't understand rudimentary calculus or physics.<br>
<br></div>Constitutional law is a complex subject and the evolution of U.S, Supreme decisions on this matter is complex and filled with many twists and turns.<br><br></div>If you are unwilling to educate yourself on the various applications of the "to promote the general welfare" clause in the last half of the 20th century by doing a little Googling, that is your problem, not that of the rest of V2020 forum.<br>
<br></div>Just to get a taste of how twisty, turny, backsliding, precedent reversing, etc and complex constitutional law can be, try following the easily accessible on Goggle the evolution of criminal procedure since the original <i>Miranda</i> ruling. <br>
<br></div>I do not know what the U.S. Supreme Court will do in the future with the meaning and limits of the 2nd Amendment, but given its history, for example, in reacting to the civil rights movement, it would be not unusual for it to reverse some of its present holding in the light of developments like mass murders by assault weapon wielding assassins and the intensity and breath of public sentiment, not to mention changes that may occur with changes in the court's membership.  If changes occur, it would not be surprising in view of the court's 20th century decisions to find some justification for change using the "promote the general welfare" clause.<br>
<br>w.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 2:06 AM, Scott Dredge <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div><div dir="ltr">
My sense is that Congress will just debate this and it won't actually make it to law.  And if it does, then there will be a flurry of challenges up to the supreme court.  If the bans survive that, then parallel to Paul's post, manufacturers will slightly tweak the designs to make pseudo-semi-automatic weapons that skirt the ban.  This sort of things happens all the time.  Several years ago I had 5-speed Camaro that shifted 1st to 4th in order to meet an EPA rating.  It was easy to over ride unless you were accelerating / shifting in the manner that the EPA test was run.  We'll see how this all plays out.<br>
<br>-Scott<br><br><div><div></div><hr>Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 19:00:33 -0800<br>From: <a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br>
CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><div><div class="h5"><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Gun Talk<br><br>
  
    
  
  
    <div><br>
      Now, I might be a fucking idiot, and you're right, I'm not a
      constitutional law scholar, and I'm still fuzzy on this whole
      "debate" thing... but I could have sworn it was your job to back
      up whatever point you're trying to make.  I'm pretty sure it's not
      mine.<br>
      <br>
      Also, are you under the delusion that the legislation Mr. Hansen
      politely provided a link for is in anyway going to affect the
      numbers of mass murders?  Sure, they won't be by "assault
      weapons".  They'll just use something that acts pretty much the
      same but doesn't meet the definition exactly.  Like the Ruger Mini
      14 I keep talking about that I doubt even one of you has googled
      yet. Unless, of course they have access to a grandfathered rifle. 
      The magazine restrictions will potentially help them.  The Aurora
      shooter tried to use a 100-round drum magazine and it jammed on
      him.  Harris brought thirteen ten-round clips for his Hi-point 995
      Carbine and managed to fire off 96 rounds before killing himself. 
      Harris's gun wasn't even one that was banned by the previous
      assault weapons ban, though it's pistol grip would make it one
      under the current legislation.<br>
      <br>
      Anyway, I'll be curious to find out if the General Welfare clause
      can override the Bill of Rights.<br>
      <br>
      Paul<br>
      <br>
      On 02/04/2013 05:16 PM, Art Deco wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote>
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>Stop trying to argue constitutional law without a
          rudimentary understanding of how the U.S, Court has used the
          "promote the general welfare" clause in deciding case of
          constitutional law.  It is not my intention to present a
          treatise on the issue;  Google for it.  Educate yourself so
          that you can see how the issue the constitutionality of
          ownership of assault weapons could be argued and possibly
          decided in the age of the increasing numbers of mass murders
          by assault weapons.<br>
          <br>
        </div>
        w.<br>
      </div>
      <div><br>
        <br>
        <div>On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 8:03 PM, Joe
          Campbell <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir="auto">
              <div>One question is what they meant by that.</div>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div><br>
                    On Feb 4, 2013, at 3:07 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>
                    wrote:<br>
                    <br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote>
                    <div>
                      <div>It talks about
                        "arms" in there, somewhere, though.  Both
                        "assault weapons" and semi automatics fall under
                        that category.<br>
                        <br>
                        Paul<br>
                        <div><span><br>
                          </span></div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial">
                                <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
                                Joe Campbell <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>
                                <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
                                Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>
                                <br>
                                <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b>
                                Gary Crabtree <<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>>;
                                "<<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>"
                                <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>
                                <br>
                                <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
                                Monday, February 4, 2013 2:29 PM<br>
                                <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
                                Re: [Vision2020] Gun Talk<br>
                              </font> </div>
                            <br>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div>The Constitution says nothing about
                                  assault weapons, nothing about semi
                                  automatics. It won't guide us on this
                                  issue. That's my view.</div>
                                <div><br>
                                  On Feb 4, 2013, at 1:27 PM, Paul
                                  Rumelhart <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>
                                  wrote:<br>
                                  <br>
                                </div>
                                <blockquote>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>Why
                                      don't YOU tell me WHERE you think
                                      the right to ban assault weapons
                                      can be found IN THE CONSTITUTION. 
                                      That's the go-to document for
                                      determining what our rights
                                      actually are.  Start there.  The
                                      poor things been abused enough
                                      lately, we don't need to ignore it
                                      again.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      That would be a great start.  That
                                      would make it a legal option that
                                      we could then set on the table for
                                      discussion.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Paul<br>
                                      <div><span><br>
                                        </span></div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial">
                                              <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
                                              Joe Campbell <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>
                                              <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
                                              Paul Rumelhart <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>
                                              <br>
                                              <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b>
                                              Gary Crabtree <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>>;
                                              "<<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>"
                                              <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>
                                              <br>
                                              <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
                                              Monday, February 4, 2013
                                              12:38 PM<br>
                                              <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
                                              Re: [Vision2020] Gun Talk<br>
                                            </font> </div>
                                          <br>
                                          <div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>You are not tracking
                                                the conversation. Why
                                                not have a similar
                                                situation with guns: you
                                                can buy what you want,
                                                as long as you're ready
                                                to face the
                                                consequences? The point
                                                is you seem happy with
                                                the libel law in place.</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                                On Feb 4, 2013, at 8:57
                                                AM, Paul Rumelhart <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>
                                                wrote:<br>
                                                <br>
                                              </div>
                                              <blockquote>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div><br>
                                                    I do tend to follow
                                                    the "innocent until
                                                    proven guilty" and
                                                    "assumed innocent
                                                    especially when
                                                    nobody has done
                                                    anything, yet"
                                                    schools of thought. 
                                                    You may have the
                                                    makings of a bomb in
                                                    your house right
                                                    now, cleverly hidden
                                                    away in otherwise
                                                    innocent household
                                                    items.  If someone
                                                    gets a warrant and
                                                    enters a residence
                                                    and it contains
                                                    bomb-making
                                                    equipment and it's
                                                    all laid out ready
                                                    to be made into a
                                                    bomb, that's one
                                                    thing.  It makes
                                                    sense that certain
                                                    items be restricted,
                                                    too, but if you want
                                                    to make a bomb you
                                                    don't need exotic
                                                    materials.  Read
                                                    through the
                                                    Anarchist's Cookbook
                                                    sometime.  I don't
                                                    suggest trying
                                                    anything in there,
                                                    though, you'd
                                                    probably lose a limb
                                                    or something.<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    I don't feel like
                                                    defending the U.S's
                                                    War on Drugs at this
                                                    point in time.<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    As for your point
                                                    about you saying
                                                    something that MIGHT
                                                    harm my reputation,
                                                    you can say anything
                                                    you like as long as
                                                    you are prepared to
                                                    face the
                                                    consequences if I
                                                    take you to court. 
                                                    What's the
                                                    alternative?  Muzzle
                                                    you?<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    Paul<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    On 02/04/2013 08:23
                                                    AM, Joe Campbell
                                                    wrote:<br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <blockquote>What do
                                                    you say about drugs?
                                                    It is OK to have
                                                    them in your
                                                    possession, you just
                                                    can't use them. Is
                                                    that your view? Do
                                                    you think it is fine
                                                    to have all the
                                                    makings for an
                                                    Oklahoma-type bomb,
                                                    or all the
                                                    ingredients for
                                                    large batches of
                                                    methamphetamine, so
                                                    long as you don't
                                                    mix them together?
                                                    Can I say lies that
                                                    MIGHT harm your
                                                    reputation and wait
                                                    and see if it
                                                    actually does harm
                                                    it before you'll
                                                    want to step in with
                                                    sanctions?<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    I think I've made my
                                                    point, and really
                                                    Art made the main
                                                    point. Busy week!<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    <div>On Sun, Feb 3,
                                                      2013 at 4:06 PM,
                                                      Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
                                                      <blockquote>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          If the point
                                                          were potential
                                                          of harm, then
                                                          the argument
                                                          that the
                                                          assault
                                                          weapons ban is
                                                          a ban on
                                                          "military
                                                          looking"
                                                          weapons as
                                                          opposed to
                                                          "militarily
                                                          useful" ones
                                                          would gain
                                                          more
                                                          traction.  <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          This is
                                                          probably
                                                          because the
                                                          real "assault
                                                          rifles"
                                                          actually are
                                                          banned, the
                                                          fully-automatic
                                                          ones.  At
                                                          least, those
                                                          made since
                                                          1986 unless
                                                          you are the
                                                          police, the
                                                          military, or a
                                                          government
                                                          agency.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          By the way,
                                                          does anyone
                                                          know if there
                                                          have been any
                                                          challenges to
                                                          that
                                                          legislation
                                                          (the Firearm
                                                          Owners
                                                          Protection Act
                                                          of 1986) that
                                                          have gone
                                                          before the
                                                          Supreme Court?<span><font color="#888888"><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Paul</font></span>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          On 02/03/2013
                                                          03:33 PM, Joe
                                                          Campbell
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <blockquote>
                                                          <div>The point
                                                          is potential
                                                          of harm</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          On Feb 3,
                                                          2013, at 3:09
                                                          PM, "Gary
                                                          Crabtree" <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>> wrote:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div><font face="Calibri">You
                                                          continue to
                                                          conflate
                                                          outcomes with
                                                          the equipment
                                                          by which they
                                                          are brought
                                                          about.</font></div>
                                                          <div> </div>
                                                          <div><font face="Calibri">Child
                                                          porn is
                                                          illegal, photographic
                                                          equipment is
                                                          not.</font></div>
                                                          <div> </div>
                                                          <div><font face="Calibri">Shooting
                                                          people is
                                                          illegal,
                                                          owning semi
                                                          automatic
                                                          firearms is
                                                          not. (and
                                                          should remain
                                                          that way)</font></div>
                                                          <div> </div>
                                                          <div><font face="Calibri">g</font></div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div style="background:#f5f5f5">
                                                          <div><b>From:</b>
                                                          <a rel="nofollow" title="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com

                                                          CTRL + Click
                                                          to follow
                                                          link" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">Joe Campbell</a> </div>
                                                          <div><b>Sent:</b>
                                                          Sunday,
                                                          February 03,
                                                          2013 2:56 PM</div>
                                                          <div><b>To:</b>
                                                          <a rel="nofollow" title="jampot@roadrunner.com" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank">Gary
                                                          Crabtree</a> </div>
                                                          <div><b>Cc:</b>
                                                          <a rel="nofollow" title="godshatter@yahoo.com" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">Paul
                                                          Rumelhart</a>
                                                          ; <a rel="nofollow" title="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com
                                                          CTRL + Click
                                                          to follow
                                                          link" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a> </div>
                                                          <div><b>Subject:</b>
                                                          Re:
                                                          [Vision2020]
                                                          Gun Talk</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          We do in fact
                                                          ban TYPES of
                                                          print: child
                                                          pornography,
                                                          for instance.
                                                          We ban types
                                                          of speech, as
                                                          well. That is
                                                          different from
                                                          banning types
                                                          of guns
                                                          exactly how?<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Again, I'm not
                                                          advocating any
                                                          specific ban.
                                                          Just that it
                                                          is absurd to
                                                          claim as you
                                                          claim, as Paul
                                                          claims, and as
                                                          the NRA
                                                          claims, that
                                                          the 2nd
                                                          amendment
                                                          should be
                                                          understood as
                                                          prohibiting
                                                          the banning of
                                                          guns
                                                          altogether.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <div>On Sun,
                                                          Feb 3, 2013 at
                                                          2:44 PM, Gary
                                                          Crabtree <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
                                                          <blockquote>
                                                          <div style="padding-left:10px;padding-right:10px;padding-top:15px">
                                                          <div><font face="Calibri">You
                                                          keep making
                                                          apples to
                                                          oranges
                                                          comparisons.</font></div>
                                                          <div> </div>
                                                          <div><font face="Calibri">In
                                                          a effort to
                                                          deter that
                                                          which is
                                                          undesirable </font><font face="Times
                                                          New Roman">(yelling
                                                          fire in a
                                                          crowded movie
                                                          theater;
                                                          libel;
                                                          slander; child
                                                          pornography) </font><font face="Calibri">we
                                                          punish the
                                                          occurrences.
                                                          We do not try
                                                          to take away
                                                          the means by
                                                          banning
                                                          magazines,
                                                          (six words or
                                                          greater)
                                                          newspapers,
                                                          internet,
                                                          photography,
                                                          or surgical
                                                          removal of the
                                                          tongue.</font></div>
                                                          <div> </div>
                                                          <div><font face="Calibri">g</font></div>
                                                          <div> </div>
                                                          <div> </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div style="background:#f5f5f5">
                                                          <div><b>From:</b>
                                                          <a rel="nofollow" title="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com

                                                          CTRL + Click
                                                          to follow
                                                          link" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">Joe Campbell</a> </div>
                                                          <div><b>Sent:</b>
                                                          Sunday,
                                                          February 03,
                                                          2013 12:41 PM</div>
                                                          <div><b>To:</b>
                                                          <a rel="nofollow" title="godshatter@yahoo.com" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">Paul
                                                          Rumelhart</a>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><b>Cc:</b>
                                                          <a rel="nofollow" title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><b>Subject:</b>
                                                          Re:
                                                          [Vision2020]
                                                          Gun Talk</div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Paul
                                                          wrote: How is
                                                          my
                                                          interpretation
                                                          of the Second
                                                          Amendment in
                                                          any way
                                                          "radical"? 
                                                          "Radical?" 
                                                          Really? 
                                                          "...the right
                                                          of the people
                                                          to keep and
                                                          bear arms
                                                          shall not be
                                                          infringed." 
                                                          How is a
                                                          government ban
                                                          on a complete
                                                          class of guns
                                                          (based almost
                                                          solely on how
                                                          military they
                                                          look) not an
                                                          infringement
                                                          of my right to
                                                          keep and bear
                                                          arms?  Doesn't
                                                          it stop me
                                                          from buying an
                                                          AR15, for
                                                          example, not
                                                          based on
                                                          market forces
                                                          or recalls
                                                          based on
                                                          safety or
                                                          popularity,
                                                          but because
                                                          the government
                                                          told me I
                                                          can't own
                                                          one?  Doesn't
                                                          that infringe
                                                          on my right to
                                                          keep and bear
                                                          arms, if only
                                                          by restricting
                                                          what I can
                                                          keep and
                                                          bear?  I don't
                                                          see how this
                                                          is "radical".<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <div>All
                                                          rights may be
                                                          infringed.
                                                          Sorry. I don't
                                                          want to try to
                                                          figure out the
                                                          founding
                                                          fathers meant
                                                          -- likely, the
                                                          right to ban
                                                          what we call
                                                          "arms" cannot
                                                          be infringed,
                                                          which is
                                                          reasonable --
                                                          but the idea
                                                          that there are
                                                          NO
                                                          restrictions
                                                          on (what we
                                                          now think of
                                                          as) gun sales
                                                          is crazy. You
                                                          can restrict
                                                          speech so you
                                                          sure as heck
                                                          can restrict
                                                          gun sales. Any
                                                          view that says
                                                          that we can do
                                                          X under ANY
                                                          circumstances
                                                          provided X is
                                                          listed in the
                                                          Bill of Rights
                                                          is a radical
                                                          view.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Show me ONE
                                                          other right
                                                          that you think
                                                          "shall not be
                                                          infringed" in
                                                          the way that
                                                          you supposed
                                                          gun rights
                                                          shall not be
                                                          infringed?
                                                          Again, it is
                                                          confusing. I
                                                          would argue
                                                          that
                                                          circumstances
                                                          in which your
                                                          speech or
                                                          expression may
                                                          be restricted
                                                          (yelling fire
                                                          in a crowded
                                                          movie theater;
                                                          libel;
                                                          slander; child
                                                          pornography)
                                                          is precisely
                                                          the point at
                                                          which your
                                                          rights end.
                                                          Again, I have
                                                          a hard time
                                                          saying the
                                                          government is
                                                          violating your
                                                          right to free
                                                          expression
                                                          because it
                                                          prohibits you
                                                          from
                                                          slandering
                                                          Gary Crabtree.
                                                          You NEVER had
                                                          that "right."
                                                          You have the
                                                          right to
                                                          speech freely
                                                          ... up to a
                                                          point. That is
                                                          just how
                                                          rights work. <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          But of course
                                                          I've already
                                                          made this
                                                          point!<br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <hr>
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                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </blockquote>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <br>
                                                  </blockquote>
                                                  <br>
                                                </div>
                                              </blockquote>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
            <br>
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            =======================================================<br>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
        <br clear="all">
        <br>
        -- <br>
        Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<br>
        <a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br>
        <br>
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      <br>
      <fieldset></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre>=======================================================
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    </blockquote>
    <br>
  

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=======================================================</div></div></div>                                       </div></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<br><a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br><br><img src="http://users.moscow.com/waf/WP%20Fox%2001.jpg"><br>

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