<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div><span></span></div><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div>Has anybody here even glanced at the proposed legislation, let alone read it?</div><div><br></div><div>NOWHERE in the proposed legislation is the phrase "military looking" used.  The bill lists specific characteristics, as well as specific weapons, to be banned.</div><div><br></div><div>I could copy and paste the 122-page bill, sponsored by Senator Diane Feinstein, here on the Viz, but why deprive you guys of a free education.</div><div><br></div><div>The proposed legislation.</div><div><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px; white-space: nowrap; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: none; "><a href="http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/files/serve/?File_id=9a9270d5-ce4d-49fb-9b2f-69e69f517fb4">http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/files/serve/?File_id=9a9270d5-ce4d-49fb-9b2f-69e69f517fb4</a></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px; white-space: nowrap; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: none; ">  </span></div><div><div>Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .</div><div><br></div><div>"Moscow Cares"</div><div><a href="http://www.MoscowCares.com">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div><div>  </div><div><div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div><br></div><div>"<span style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">There's room at the top they are telling you still</span><span style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "> </span></div><span style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill </span><br style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "><span style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div><div><font size="3"><span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></font></div><div><font size="3"><span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">- John Lennon<br></span></font><div> </div></div></div><div><br>On Feb 3, 2013, at 6:07 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
  
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      OK, that all make sense.  Now, imagine that they banned anything
      that looked like a lock picking tool, for example, regardless of
      whether or not it could actually function as one.  Things like
      chopsticks, plastic hangers, toothpicks, etc.  Then you would
      start to realize what we are talking about when we say "military
      looking" weapons vs. "militarily useful" ones.  Basically, weapons
      that look like movie props but are only slightly easier to use
      than other ones that look more like normal WWII weapons or hunting
      rifles.  Not that I have any doubts that Gary could pick a lock
      with nothing but a toothpick...<br>
      <br>
      Actual assault rifles are currently banned.  Those that fire in
      full-auto mode.  The cleverly named "assault weapons" ban doesn't
      ban those real assault rifles you see in SWAT takedowns of 12-year
      olds sharing Taylor Swift songs, they ban ones that are made to
      *look* like them instead.  Except that they are semi-automatics
      like a billion other guns out there, from your .45 Colt to your
      .22 target rifle.<br>
      <br>
      I'd love to get one of you to address this point, but I haven't
      seen anyone address it so far.  Even if I was convinced that a ban
      on certain calibers of semi-automatics was a good idea (which I'm
      not), I still wouldn't support the current assault weapons ban
      because it's all frosting and very little cake.<br>
      <br>
      Paul<br>
      <br>
      On 02/03/2013 05:20 PM, Art Deco wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CAB8VJX4c32nfU0V07xX0XLLvUKRs7iGutruTdtrRt1Se0sW80Q@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>
          <div>Again ignorance of the law raises its ugly rear.<br>
            <br>
          </div>
          In many states ownership of drug paraphernalia is banned; so
          is ownership of certain burglary tools; except for licensed
          and certified locksmiths ownership of lock picking tools is
          banned; except for those licensed ownership of certain kinds
          of explosive is banned, etc.<br>
          <br>
        </div>
        w.  <br>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 7:06 PM, Paul
          Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
              <div><br>
                If the point were potential of harm, then the argument
                that the assault weapons ban is a ban on "military
                looking" weapons as opposed to "militarily useful" ones
                would gain more traction.  <br>
                <br>
                This is probably because the real "assault rifles"
                actually are banned, the fully-automatic ones.  At
                least, those made since 1986 unless you are the police,
                the military, or a government agency.<br>
                <br>
                By the way, does anyone know if there have been any
                challenges to that legislation (the Firearm Owners
                Protection Act of 1986) that have gone before the
                Supreme Court?<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
                    <br>
                    Paul</font></span>
                <div>
                  <div class="h5"><br>
                    <br>
                    On 02/03/2013 03:33 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <div>
                <div class="h5">
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div>The point is potential of harm</div>
                    <div><br>
                      On Feb 3, 2013, at 3:09 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>>
                      wrote:<br>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote type="cite">
                      <div>
                        <div><font face="Calibri">You continue to
                            conflate outcomes with the equipment by
                            which they are brought about.</font></div>
                        <div> </div>
                        <div><font face="Calibri">Child porn is
                            illegal, photographic equipment is not.</font></div>
                        <div> </div>
                        <div><font face="Calibri">Shooting people is
                            illegal, owning semi automatic firearms is
                            not. (and should remain that way)</font></div>
                        <div> </div>
                        <div><font face="Calibri">g</font></div>
                        <div style="FONT:10pt Tahoma">
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
                            <div><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com
                                CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">Joe Campbell</a> </div>
                            <div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 03, 2013
                              2:56 PM</div>
                            <div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="jampot@roadrunner.com" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank">Gary Crabtree</a> </div>
                            <div><b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="godshatter@yahoo.com" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">Paul Rumelhart</a> ; <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com CTRL
                                + Click to follow link" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
                            </div>
                            <div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Gun
                              Talk</div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        We do in fact ban TYPES of print: child
                        pornography, for instance. We ban types of
                        speech, as well. That is different from banning
                        types of guns exactly how?<br>
                        <br>
                        Again, I'm not advocating any specific ban. Just
                        that it is absurd to claim as you claim, as Paul
                        claims, and as the NRA claims, that the 2nd
                        amendment should be understood as prohibiting
                        the banning of guns altogether.<br>
                        <br>
                        <div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at
                          2:44 PM, Gary Crabtree <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>></span>
                          wrote:<br>
                          <blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px
                            solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px
                            0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
                            <div style="PADDING-LEFT:10px;PADDING-RIGHT:10px;PADDING-TOP:15px" name="Compose message area">
                              <div><font face="Calibri">You keep making
                                  apples to oranges comparisons.</font></div>
                              <div> </div>
                              <div><font face="Calibri">In a effort to
                                  deter that which is undesirable </font><font face="Times New Roman">(yelling fire
                                  in a crowded movie theater; libel;
                                  slander; child pornography) </font><font face="Calibri">we punish the
                                  occurrences. We do not try to take
                                  away the means by banning magazines,
                                  (six words or greater) newspapers,
                                  internet, photography, or surgical
                                  removal of the tongue.</font></div>
                              <div> </div>
                              <div><font face="Calibri">g</font></div>
                              <div> </div>
                              <div> </div>
                              <div style="FONT:10pt Tahoma">
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
                                  <div><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com
                                      CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">Joe Campbell</a> </div>
                                  <div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 03,
                                    2013 12:41 PM</div>
                                  <div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="godshatter@yahoo.com" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">Paul Rumelhart</a>
                                  </div>
                                  <div><b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
                                  </div>
                                  <div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020]
                                    Gun Talk</div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto">Paul wrote: How is my
                                interpretation of the Second Amendment
                                in any way "radical"?  "Radical?" 
                                Really?  "...the right of the people to
                                keep and bear arms shall not be
                                infringed."  How is a government ban on
                                a complete class of guns (based almost
                                solely on how military they look) not an
                                infringement of my right to keep and
                                bear arms?  Doesn't it stop me from
                                buying an AR15, for example, not based
                                on market forces or recalls based on
                                safety or popularity, but because the
                                government told me I can't own one? 
                                Doesn't that infringe on my right to
                                keep and bear arms, if only by
                                restricting what I can keep and bear?  I
                                don't see how this is "radical".<br>
                                <br>
                                <div>All rights may be infringed. Sorry.
                                  I don't want to try to figure out the
                                  founding fathers meant -- likely, the
                                  right to ban what we call "arms"
                                  cannot be infringed, which is
                                  reasonable -- but the idea that there
                                  are NO restrictions on (what we now
                                  think of as) gun sales is crazy. You
                                  can restrict speech so you sure as
                                  heck can restrict gun sales. Any view
                                  that says that we can do X under ANY
                                  circumstances provided X is listed in
                                  the Bill of Rights is a radical view.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Show me ONE other right that you think
                                  "shall not be infringed" in the way
                                  that you supposed gun rights shall not
                                  be infringed? Again, it is confusing.
                                  I would argue that circumstances in
                                  which your speech or expression may be
                                  restricted (yelling fire in a crowded
                                  movie theater; libel; slander; child
                                  pornography) is precisely the point at
                                  which your rights end. Again, I have a
                                  hard time saying the government is
                                  violating your right to free
                                  expression because it prohibits you
                                  from slandering Gary Crabtree. You
                                  NEVER had that "right." You have the
                                  right to speech freely ... up to a
                                  point. That is just how rights work. <br>
                                  <br>
                                  But of course I've already made this
                                  point!<br>
                                </div>
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          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
        <br clear="all">
        <br>
        -- <br>
        Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<br>
        <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br>
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    <br>
  

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