<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div><span></span></div><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div>Has anybody here even glanced at the proposed legislation, let alone read it?</div><div><br></div><div>NOWHERE in the proposed legislation is the phrase "military looking" used. The bill lists specific characteristics, as well as specific weapons, to be banned.</div><div><br></div><div>I could copy and paste the 122-page bill, sponsored by Senator Diane Feinstein, here on the Viz, but why deprive you guys of a free education.</div><div><br></div><div>The proposed legislation.</div><div><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px; white-space: nowrap; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: none; "><a href="http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/files/serve/?File_id=9a9270d5-ce4d-49fb-9b2f-69e69f517fb4">http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/files/serve/?File_id=9a9270d5-ce4d-49fb-9b2f-69e69f517fb4</a></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px; white-space: nowrap; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: none; "> </span></div><div><div>Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .</div><div><br></div><div>"Moscow Cares"</div><div><a href="http://www.MoscowCares.com">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div><div> </div><div><div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div><br></div><div>"<span style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">There's room at the top they are telling you still</span><span style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "> </span></div><span style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill </span><br style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "><span style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span></div><div><font size="3"><span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></font></div><div><font size="3"><span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">- John Lennon<br></span></font><div> </div></div></div><div><br>On Feb 3, 2013, at 6:07 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
OK, that all make sense. Now, imagine that they banned anything
that looked like a lock picking tool, for example, regardless of
whether or not it could actually function as one. Things like
chopsticks, plastic hangers, toothpicks, etc. Then you would
start to realize what we are talking about when we say "military
looking" weapons vs. "militarily useful" ones. Basically, weapons
that look like movie props but are only slightly easier to use
than other ones that look more like normal WWII weapons or hunting
rifles. Not that I have any doubts that Gary could pick a lock
with nothing but a toothpick...<br>
<br>
Actual assault rifles are currently banned. Those that fire in
full-auto mode. The cleverly named "assault weapons" ban doesn't
ban those real assault rifles you see in SWAT takedowns of 12-year
olds sharing Taylor Swift songs, they ban ones that are made to
*look* like them instead. Except that they are semi-automatics
like a billion other guns out there, from your .45 Colt to your
.22 target rifle.<br>
<br>
I'd love to get one of you to address this point, but I haven't
seen anyone address it so far. Even if I was convinced that a ban
on certain calibers of semi-automatics was a good idea (which I'm
not), I still wouldn't support the current assault weapons ban
because it's all frosting and very little cake.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 02/03/2013 05:20 PM, Art Deco wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:CAB8VJX4c32nfU0V07xX0XLLvUKRs7iGutruTdtrRt1Se0sW80Q@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>Again ignorance of the law raises its ugly rear.<br>
<br>
</div>
In many states ownership of drug paraphernalia is banned; so
is ownership of certain burglary tools; except for licensed
and certified locksmiths ownership of lock picking tools is
banned; except for those licensed ownership of certain kinds
of explosive is banned, etc.<br>
<br>
</div>
w. <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 7:06 PM, Paul
Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div><br>
If the point were potential of harm, then the argument
that the assault weapons ban is a ban on "military
looking" weapons as opposed to "militarily useful" ones
would gain more traction. <br>
<br>
This is probably because the real "assault rifles"
actually are banned, the fully-automatic ones. At
least, those made since 1986 unless you are the police,
the military, or a government agency.<br>
<br>
By the way, does anyone know if there have been any
challenges to that legislation (the Firearm Owners
Protection Act of 1986) that have gone before the
Supreme Court?<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Paul</font></span>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
On 02/03/2013 03:33 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>The point is potential of harm</div>
<div><br>
On Feb 3, 2013, at 3:09 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div><font face="Calibri">You continue to
conflate outcomes with the equipment by
which they are brought about.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Calibri">Child porn is
illegal, photographic equipment is not.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Calibri">Shooting people is
illegal, owning semi automatic firearms is
not. (and should remain that way)</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Calibri">g</font></div>
<div style="FONT:10pt Tahoma">
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com
CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">Joe Campbell</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 03, 2013
2:56 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="jampot@roadrunner.com" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank">Gary Crabtree</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="godshatter@yahoo.com" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">Paul Rumelhart</a> ; <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com CTRL
+ Click to follow link" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Gun
Talk</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
We do in fact ban TYPES of print: child
pornography, for instance. We ban types of
speech, as well. That is different from banning
types of guns exactly how?<br>
<br>
Again, I'm not advocating any specific ban. Just
that it is absurd to claim as you claim, as Paul
claims, and as the NRA claims, that the 2nd
amendment should be understood as prohibiting
the banning of guns altogether.<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at
2:44 PM, Gary Crabtree <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px
solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div style="PADDING-LEFT:10px;PADDING-RIGHT:10px;PADDING-TOP:15px" name="Compose message area">
<div><font face="Calibri">You keep making
apples to oranges comparisons.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Calibri">In a effort to
deter that which is undesirable </font><font face="Times New Roman">(yelling fire
in a crowded movie theater; libel;
slander; child pornography) </font><font face="Calibri">we punish the
occurrences. We do not try to take
away the means by banning magazines,
(six words or greater) newspapers,
internet, photography, or surgical
removal of the tongue.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Calibri">g</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt Tahoma">
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com
CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">Joe Campbell</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 03,
2013 12:41 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="godshatter@yahoo.com" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">Paul Rumelhart</a>
</div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020]
Gun Talk</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Paul wrote: How is my
interpretation of the Second Amendment
in any way "radical"? "Radical?"
Really? "...the right of the people to
keep and bear arms shall not be
infringed." How is a government ban on
a complete class of guns (based almost
solely on how military they look) not an
infringement of my right to keep and
bear arms? Doesn't it stop me from
buying an AR15, for example, not based
on market forces or recalls based on
safety or popularity, but because the
government told me I can't own one?
Doesn't that infringe on my right to
keep and bear arms, if only by
restricting what I can keep and bear? I
don't see how this is "radical".<br>
<br>
<div>All rights may be infringed. Sorry.
I don't want to try to figure out the
founding fathers meant -- likely, the
right to ban what we call "arms"
cannot be infringed, which is
reasonable -- but the idea that there
are NO restrictions on (what we now
think of as) gun sales is crazy. You
can restrict speech so you sure as
heck can restrict gun sales. Any view
that says that we can do X under ANY
circumstances provided X is listed in
the Bill of Rights is a radical view.<br>
<br>
Show me ONE other right that you think
"shall not be infringed" in the way
that you supposed gun rights shall not
be infringed? Again, it is confusing.
I would argue that circumstances in
which your speech or expression may be
restricted (yelling fire in a crowded
movie theater; libel; slander; child
pornography) is precisely the point at
which your rights end. Again, I have a
hard time saying the government is
violating your right to free
expression because it prohibits you
from slandering Gary Crabtree. You
NEVER had that "right." You have the
right to speech freely ... up to a
point. That is just how rights work. <br>
<br>
But of course I've already made this
point!<br>
</div>
</div>
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-- <br>
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