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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
Is this the actual legislation they are going to try to pass?
Because it's about as ludicrous as the old ban but appears to be
much stricter. <br>
<br>
Mr. Hansen, and others that are/were in the military or are
otherwise knowledgeable, a couple of questions:<br>
<br>
Could you tell me the reasoning behind banning barrel shrouds is?
Don't they just protect you from burning yourself on an
over-heated barrel? I mean, they look cool, but would the lack of
a barrel shroud affect a spree shooter in any noticeable way?<br>
<br>
What about threaded barrels? Isn't it enough to simply ban or
regulate sound suppressors, as they already appear to be?<br>
<br>
Pistol grips. Is this really going to help much? The only reason
to ban these that I could see would be to stop someone from being
able to shoot the rifle one-handed. Is that really an issue in
spree shootings? Same with forward grips. Doesn't a forward grip
just make it more comfortable with respect to the recoil when
firing many rounds? I can see wanting these on a weapon you are
going to use day-in and day-out, but I don't think spree shooters
are looking that far ahead.<br>
<br>
I can understand about the collapsible stocks. If you have to
sneak the weapon in, this could be a deal breaker. Or at least
make you go with pistols instead.<br>
<br>
I'll spot you all grenade and rocket launcher attachments.<br>
<br>
And last, but not least, wouldn't a Ruger Mini 14, which looks
like a normal carbine or hunting rifle with a detachable magazine,
work just as well for all intents and purposes as a rifle with two
or more of the above items?<br>
<br>
This seems to me to be more show than anything else, at least with
regards to the semi-automatic rifle guidelines. But I'm not an
expert rifleman.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 02/03/2013 06:47 PM, Tom Hansen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:BAE2B068-DC55-4BC5-994D-7ECAAD523B91@moscow.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div><span></span></div>
<div>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<div>Has anybody here even glanced at the proposed legislation,
let alone read it?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>NOWHERE in the proposed legislation is the phrase "military
looking" used. The bill lists specific characteristics, as
well as specific weapons, to be banned.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I could copy and paste the 122-page bill, sponsored by
Senator Diane Feinstein, here on the Viz, but why deprive you
guys of a free education.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The proposed legislation.</div>
<div><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px;
white-space: nowrap; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26,
26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175,
192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color:
rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust:
none; "><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/files/serve/?File_id=9a9270d5-ce4d-49fb-9b2f-69e69f517fb4">http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/files/serve/?File_id=9a9270d5-ce4d-49fb-9b2f-69e69f517fb4</a></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px;
white-space: nowrap; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26,
26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175,
192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color:
rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust:
none; "> </span></div>
<div>
<div>Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"Moscow Cares"</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.MoscowCares.com">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>Tom Hansen</div>
<div>Moscow, Idaho</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"<span style="font-size: medium;
-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969);
-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227,
0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77,
128, 180, 0.230469); ">There's room at the top they are
telling you still</span><span style="font-size: medium;
-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969);
-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227,
0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77,
128, 180, 0.230469); "> </span></div>
<span style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color:
rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875);
-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227,
0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128,
180, 0.230469); ">But first you must learn how to smile as
you kill </span><br style="font-size: medium;
-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875);
-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227,
0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128,
180, 0.230469); ">
<span style="font-size: medium; -webkit-tap-highlight-color:
rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875);
-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227,
0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128,
180, 0.230469); ">If you want to be like the folks on the
hill."</span></div>
<div><font size="3"><span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color:
rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969);
-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227,
0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77,
128, 180, 0.230469);"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font size="3"><span style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color:
rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969);
-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227,
0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77,
128, 180, 0.230469);">- John Lennon<br>
</span></font>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
On Feb 3, 2013, at 6:07 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
OK, that all make sense. Now, imagine that they banned
anything that looked like a lock picking tool, for
example, regardless of whether or not it could actually
function as one. Things like chopsticks, plastic hangers,
toothpicks, etc. Then you would start to realize what we
are talking about when we say "military looking" weapons
vs. "militarily useful" ones. Basically, weapons that
look like movie props but are only slightly easier to use
than other ones that look more like normal WWII weapons or
hunting rifles. Not that I have any doubts that Gary
could pick a lock with nothing but a toothpick...<br>
<br>
Actual assault rifles are currently banned. Those that
fire in full-auto mode. The cleverly named "assault
weapons" ban doesn't ban those real assault rifles you see
in SWAT takedowns of 12-year olds sharing Taylor Swift
songs, they ban ones that are made to *look* like them
instead. Except that they are semi-automatics like a
billion other guns out there, from your .45 Colt to your
.22 target rifle.<br>
<br>
I'd love to get one of you to address this point, but I
haven't seen anyone address it so far. Even if I was
convinced that a ban on certain calibers of
semi-automatics was a good idea (which I'm not), I still
wouldn't support the current assault weapons ban because
it's all frosting and very little cake.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 02/03/2013 05:20 PM, Art Deco wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAB8VJX4c32nfU0V07xX0XLLvUKRs7iGutruTdtrRt1Se0sW80Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>Again ignorance of the law raises its ugly rear.<br>
<br>
</div>
In many states ownership of drug paraphernalia is
banned; so is ownership of certain burglary tools;
except for licensed and certified locksmiths ownership
of lock picking tools is banned; except for those
licensed ownership of certain kinds of explosive is
banned, etc.<br>
<br>
</div>
w. <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 7:06 PM,
Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div><br>
If the point were potential of harm, then the
argument that the assault weapons ban is a ban
on "military looking" weapons as opposed to
"militarily useful" ones would gain more
traction. <br>
<br>
This is probably because the real "assault
rifles" actually are banned, the fully-automatic
ones. At least, those made since 1986 unless
you are the police, the military, or a
government agency.<br>
<br>
By the way, does anyone know if there have been
any challenges to that legislation (the Firearm
Owners Protection Act of 1986) that have gone
before the Supreme Court?<span class="HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Paul</font></span>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
On 02/03/2013 03:33 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>The point is potential of harm</div>
<div><br>
On Feb 3, 2013, at 3:09 PM, "Gary
Crabtree" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"
target="_blank">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div><font face="Calibri">You continue
to conflate outcomes with the
equipment by which they are brought
about.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Calibri">Child porn is
illegal, photographic equipment is
not.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Calibri">Shooting
people is illegal, owning semi
automatic firearms is not. (and
should remain that way)</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Calibri">g</font></div>
<div style="FONT:10pt Tahoma">
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"
target="_blank">Joe Campbell</a>
</div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February
03, 2013 2:56 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="jampot@roadrunner.com"
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"
target="_blank">Gary Crabtree</a>
</div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="godshatter@yahoo.com"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">Paul Rumelhart</a>
; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[Vision2020] Gun Talk</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
We do in fact ban TYPES of print: child
pornography, for instance. We ban types
of speech, as well. That is different
from banning types of guns exactly how?<br>
<br>
Again, I'm not advocating any specific
ban. Just that it is absurd to claim as
you claim, as Paul claims, and as the
NRA claims, that the 2nd amendment
should be understood as prohibiting the
banning of guns altogether.<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb 3,
2013 at 2:44 PM, Gary Crabtree <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"
target="_blank">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc
1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex"
class="gmail_quote">
<div
style="PADDING-LEFT:10px;PADDING-RIGHT:10px;PADDING-TOP:15px"
name="Compose message area">
<div><font face="Calibri">You keep
making apples to oranges
comparisons.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Calibri">In a
effort to deter that which is
undesirable </font><font
face="Times New Roman">(yelling
fire in a crowded movie
theater; libel; slander; child
pornography) </font><font
face="Calibri">we punish the
occurrences. We do not try to
take away the means by banning
magazines, (six words or
greater) newspapers, internet,
photography, or surgical
removal of the tongue.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Calibri">g</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt Tahoma">
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com
CTRL + Click to follow
link"
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"
target="_blank">Joe
Campbell</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday,
February 03, 2013 12:41 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="godshatter@yahoo.com"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">Paul Rumelhart</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="vision2020@moscow.com"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[Vision2020] Gun Talk</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Paul wrote: How is
my interpretation of the Second
Amendment in any way "radical"?
"Radical?" Really? "...the
right of the people to keep and
bear arms shall not be
infringed." How is a government
ban on a complete class of guns
(based almost solely on how
military they look) not an
infringement of my right to keep
and bear arms? Doesn't it stop
me from buying an AR15, for
example, not based on market
forces or recalls based on
safety or popularity, but
because the government told me I
can't own one? Doesn't that
infringe on my right to keep and
bear arms, if only by
restricting what I can keep and
bear? I don't see how this is
"radical".<br>
<br>
<div>All rights may be
infringed. Sorry. I don't want
to try to figure out the
founding fathers meant --
likely, the right to ban what
we call "arms" cannot be
infringed, which is reasonable
-- but the idea that there are
NO restrictions on (what we
now think of as) gun sales is
crazy. You can restrict speech
so you sure as heck can
restrict gun sales. Any view
that says that we can do X
under ANY circumstances
provided X is listed in the
Bill of Rights is a radical
view.<br>
<br>
Show me ONE other right that
you think "shall not be
infringed" in the way that you
supposed gun rights shall not
be infringed? Again, it is
confusing. I would argue that
circumstances in which your
speech or expression may be
restricted (yelling fire in a
crowded movie theater; libel;
slander; child pornography) is
precisely the point at which
your rights end. Again, I have
a hard time saying the
government is violating your
right to free expression
because it prohibits you from
slandering Gary Crabtree. You
NEVER had that "right." You
have the right to speech
freely ... up to a point. That
is just how rights work. <br>
<br>
But of course I've already
made this point!<br>
</div>
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