Let me rephrase the point I was trying to make above: no one is perfect. And we don't need to look at insults from the distant past. We can just refer to the letter below, where you wrote:<br><br>"It is one thing to have a robust conversation, even a
debate, on the pressing issues confronting Moscow and Latah
County. That is one of the prime objectives of Vision2020.
It is quite another thing when the dialogue belittles,
harasses, threatens, demeans and/or attacks those who
express themselves. Such actions do little to advance the
role and mission of Vision2020."<br><br>This strikes me as offensive and I think that other people from the left who participate in V2020 would find it offensive also. Here is another clue: I know several people (some who write on V2020) who were offended by Wayne's initial speech, the one that started this discussion. I know you don't care but that strikes me as a big part of the problem.<br>
<br>But the offense that we're talking about here is the offense that comes with free speech. Free speech (legally) allows that you not only say what you will but that you say it how you wish. Of course there are limits: you can't make threats, for instance (I'm assuming that charge was just an ironic slip on your part). But I can insult you just as you have insulted me so long as what we mean by "insult" is confined to personal feelings; so long as it is not quantifiable in some legal or moral way (slander, libel -- such as falsely claiming on V2020 that some particular person had publicly threatened a city official). <br>
<br>I've been away, so I haven't had a chance to read all the posts. But I have read some posts by Rose and Debi, in particular, that weren't "friendly" but contained some very substantive points that are well worth discussing. Points that you completely wash over in your over-general critique of this dialogue and the contributions from Wayne's critics.<br>
<br>I like Wayne and I have no desire to drag out the details, which is why I will avoid commenting on the issue itself. Nor does it matter because if one wants to know what Rose and Debi and others have said, one should just read the posts for oneself; don't depend on Jeffs-notes versions of what they said. <br>
<br>It ain't always pretty, but discussions about substantive issues -- especially when there is dramatic disagreement in key places -- are sometimes like that. What matters is the content and, as you say, that should be the focus. That is one purpose of V2020: It allows for the discussion of issues that are difficult to discuss. <br>
<br>Joe<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Joe Campbell <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>You've got to be kidding, Jeff. Should I track down down some of the insulting comments you've made? Joe<br>
<br>On Jan 25, 2013, at 12:47 PM, Jeff Harkins <<a href="mailto:jeffh@moscow.com" target="_blank">jeffh@moscow.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<br>
<div><br>
<br>
-------- Original Message --------
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap valign="BASELINE">Subject:
</th>
<td>Re: [Vision2020] THE VIZ - Is It time for a reset ??????</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap valign="BASELINE">Date: </th>
<td>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 10:46:01 -0800</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap valign="BASELINE">From: </th>
<td>Jeff Harkins <a href="mailto:jeffh@moscow.com" target="_blank"><jeffh@moscow.com></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap valign="BASELINE">Reply-To:
</th>
<td><a href="mailto:jeffh@moscow.com" target="_blank">jeffh@moscow.com</a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap valign="BASELINE">To: </th>
<td>Tom Hansen <a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank"><thansen@moscow.com></a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<div>I could not disagree with you more -
individuals are entitled to respect. Certainly one is entitled
to criticize a public officials positions on issues - it is
inappropriate to launch personal attacks.<br>
<br>
On 1/25/2013 10:42 AM, Tom Hansen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Mr. Harkins . . .</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">The city
council's public lives (such as when they are in session)
are public domain. As such, they should expect, or at least
anticipate, some degree of ridicule (as long as it is clean)
from those who strongly disagree with them.</span></div>
<div><br>
<div>Seeya round
town, Moscow, because . . .</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"Moscow Cares"</div>
<div><a href="http://www.MoscowCares.com" target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>Tom Hansen</div>
<div>Moscow, Idaho</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"<span style="font-size:medium">There's room at the top they are
telling you still</span><span style="font-size:medium"> </span></div>
<span style="font-size:medium">But first you must learn how to smile as
you kill </span><br style="font-size:medium">
<span style="font-size:medium">If you want to be like the folks on the
hill."</span></div>
<div><font size="3"><span><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font size="3"><span>- John Lennon<br>
</span></font>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div><div><div>
<div><br>
On Jan 25, 2013, at 10:35 AM, Jeff Harkins <<a href="mailto:jeffh@moscow.com" target="_blank">jeffh@moscow.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
Over the past several years, the vitriolic nature of the
dialogue posted to Vision2020 has become increasingly
hostile and in many instances, highly personal.<br>
<br>
It is one thing to have a robust conversation, even a
debate, on the pressing issues confronting Moscow and Latah
County. That is one of the prime objectives of Vision2020.
It is quite another thing when the dialogue belittles,
harasses, threatens, demeans and/or attacks those who
express themselves. Such actions do little to advance the
role and mission of Vision2020.<br>
<br>
Perhaps a review of the Vision2020 Mission Statement will
help to remind or raise awareness of the intended purpose of
this website - the mission statement is appended below. <br>
<br>
I am reasonably confident that the intent of First Step
Internet in providing "free" hosting for the site was not to
endorse or condone personal attacks - chiding, slurring,
harassment and threats. I know that as a customer of FSI, I
am not interested in helping to fund a site that allows
unfettered personal attacks on individuals. The recent
"satire" posting demeaning the words of Councilman Wayne
Krauss is a prime example of poor and unwarranted behavior.
I know that Councilman Krauss would engage in a spirited
conversation on most topics. So, if one has an issue with
the Councilman, engage him in a conversation. To mock his
view is a discredit to our community - it should stop.<br>
<br>
I can only wonder what visitors from other communities think
about the despicable nature of some of the posts. Is that
the sort of impression we want to promote to visitors?<br>
<br>
Now, it is true that not everyone posting to the site is
guilty of poor behavior - but those who frequent the site
know that there are numerous individuals who do their best
to mock, harass and denigrate individuals. <br>
<br>
Many will argue that the site should be self policing; the
"adult participants" should work to discourage poor
behavior. But that doesn't seem to be very effective. <br>
<br>
To be candid, if the Vision 2020 posters can't find topics
more worthy than mocking an elected official's comments
about "moral decline" it is time to shut the blog site
down. There is little to be gained by allowing individuals
to denigrate our community and its residents by lending
credibility to the small-minded mean and nasty comments of
the few. <br>
<br>
Perhaps the VIZ has served its purpose and its usefulness.
Or, perhaps there should be some "rules" or "protocols" for
the Vision2020 site. Perhaps the site should be
restructured - charge small fee, get a new site, establish
rules and protocols. <br>
<br>
Perhaps those that wish to continue poor behavior and
actions that would denigrate selected individuals should
acquire their own blog site and post whatever they wish.<br>
<br>
If the VIZ is to continue, its patrons should consider a
refocus on the stated goals and objectives of the VIZ.<br>
<br>
Finally, according to the Vision2020 website:<br>
<br>
<table border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width="400">
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td colspan="2" width="400">Vision 2020 has no
bylaws, budget or membership requirements.
Its activities are coordinated by a <u>three-member
steering committee chosen annually by
consensus</u>.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
By the way, who are the individuals currently serving on the
Steering Committee and when is the election for the
positions held?<br>
<br>
<br>
<h3>Vision 2020 Mission Statement Adopted March 1995</h3>
<ol>
<li>To ensure that all parts of our community have an
opportunity to take part in visualizing and planning for
the community's future. <br>
<br>
</li>
<li>To strengthen citizens' sense of community by
promoting awareness, ownership and investment in
Moscow's future. <br>
<br>
</li>
<li>To foster cooperation among (and public involvement
with) the agencies and organizations that plan for and
make decisions about the future of Moscow and Latah
County. <br>
<br>
</li>
<li>To raise awareness on the part of citizens and public
officials that: <br>
<br>
<ol>
<li>uncontrolled and unplanned growth may have
negative effects. <br>
<br>
</li>
<li>short-term decisions have long-term consequences.
</li>
</ol>
<br>
</li>
<li>To inform ourselves about growth and development
issues. <br>
<br>
</li>
<li>To have fun thinking critically and creatively.</li>
</ol>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div><blockquote type="cite">
<div><span>=======================================================</span><br>
<span> List services made available by First Step Internet,</span><br>
<span> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.</span><br>
<span> <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a></span><br>
<span> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a></span><br>
<span>=======================================================</span></div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>=======================================================</span><br><span> List services made available by First Step Internet,</span><br><span> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.</span><br>
<span> <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a></span><br><span> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a></span><br><span>=======================================================</span></div>
</blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br>