<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
      So you're saying that we need to be careful when calling someone
      out for dialogue that "belittles, harasses, threatens, demeans, or
      attacks", lest we hurt some totally unrelated person's feelings? 
      What about the guy that is being complained about?  Does he get a
      free ride because he's "from the left"?<br>
      <br>
      Paul<br>
      <br>
      P.S.  Yes, I know, I haven't always been the politest son of a
      bitch on the list.<br>
      <br>
      On 01/29/2013 10:37 AM, Joe Campbell wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CA+fbP8xMMtqrYPC5gitK-dpaV_ThJT4aA+wOpmnae8evS+xeCQ@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">Let me rephrase the point I was trying to make above:
      no one is perfect. And we don't need to look at insults from the
      distant past. We can just refer to the letter below, where you
      wrote:<br>
      <br>
      "It is one thing to have a robust conversation, even a debate, on
      the pressing issues confronting Moscow and Latah County. That is
      one of the prime objectives of Vision2020.  It is quite another
      thing when the dialogue belittles, harasses, threatens, demeans
      and/or attacks those who express themselves.  Such actions do
      little to advance the role and mission of Vision2020."<br>
      <br>
      This strikes me as offensive and I think that other people from
      the left who participate in V2020 would find it offensive also.
      Here is another clue: I know several people (some who write on
      V2020) who were offended by Wayne's initial speech, the one that
      started this discussion. I know you don't care but that strikes me
      as a big part of the problem.<br>
      <br>
      But the offense that we're talking about here is the offense that
      comes with free speech. Free speech (legally) allows that you not
      only say what you will but that you say it how you wish. Of course
      there are limits: you can't make threats, for instance (I'm
      assuming that charge was just an ironic slip on your part). But I
      can insult you just as you have insulted me so long as what we
      mean by "insult" is confined to personal feelings; so long as it
      is not quantifiable in some legal or moral way (slander, libel --
      such as falsely claiming on V2020 that some particular person had
      publicly threatened a city official). <br>
      <br>
      I've been away, so I haven't had a chance to read all the posts.
      But I have read some posts by Rose and Debi, in particular, that
      weren't "friendly" but contained some very substantive points that
      are well worth discussing. Points that you completely wash over in
      your over-general critique of this dialogue and the contributions
      from Wayne's critics.<br>
      <br>
      I like Wayne and I have no desire to drag out the details, which
      is why I will avoid commenting on the issue itself. Nor does it
      matter because if one wants to know what Rose and Debi and others
      have said, one should just read the posts for oneself; don't
      depend on Jeffs-notes versions of what they said. <br>
      <br>
      It ain't always pretty, but discussions about substantive issues
      -- especially when there is dramatic disagreement in key places --
      are sometimes like that. What matters is the content and, as you
      say, that should be the focus. That is one purpose of V2020: It
      allows for the discussion of issues that are difficult to discuss.
      <br>
      <br>
      Joe<br>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Joe
        Campbell <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></span>
        wrote:<br>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          <div dir="auto">
            <div>You've got to be kidding, Jeff. Should I track down
              down some of the insulting comments you've made? Joe<br>
              <br>
              On Jan 25, 2013, at 12:47 PM, Jeff Harkins <<a
                moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jeffh@moscow.com"
                target="_blank">jeffh@moscow.com</a>> wrote:<br>
              <br>
            </div>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <div> <br>
                <div><br>
                  <br>
                  -------- Original Message --------
                  <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
                    <tbody>
                      <tr>
                        <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE"
                          align="RIGHT">Subject: </th>
                        <td>Re: [Vision2020] THE VIZ - Is It time for a
                          reset ??????</td>
                      </tr>
                      <tr>
                        <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE"
                          align="RIGHT">Date: </th>
                        <td>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 10:46:01 -0800</td>
                      </tr>
                      <tr>
                        <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE"
                          align="RIGHT">From: </th>
                        <td>Jeff Harkins <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:jeffh@moscow.com"
                            target="_blank"><jeffh@moscow.com></a></td>
                      </tr>
                      <tr>
                        <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE"
                          align="RIGHT">Reply-To: </th>
                        <td><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:jeffh@moscow.com"
                            target="_blank">jeffh@moscow.com</a></td>
                      </tr>
                      <tr>
                        <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE"
                          align="RIGHT">To: </th>
                        <td>Tom Hansen <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com"
                            target="_blank"><thansen@moscow.com></a></td>
                      </tr>
                    </tbody>
                  </table>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <div>I could not disagree with you more - individuals
                    are entitled to respect.  Certainly one is entitled
                    to criticize a public officials positions on issues
                    - it is inappropriate to launch personal attacks.<br>
                    <br>
                    On 1/25/2013 10:42 AM, Tom Hansen wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div>Mr. Harkins . . .</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div><span
                        style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">The
                        city council's public lives (such as when they
                        are in session) are public domain.  As such,
                        they should expect, or at least anticipate, some
                        degree of ridicule (as long as it is clean) from
                        those who strongly disagree with them.</span></div>
                    <div><br>
                      <div>Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>"Moscow Cares"</div>
                      <div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="http://www.MoscowCares.com"
                          target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div>
                      <div>  </div>
                      <div>
                        <div>Tom Hansen</div>
                        <div>Moscow, Idaho</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>"<span style="font-size:medium">There's
                            room at the top they are telling you still</span><span
                            style="font-size:medium"> </span></div>
                        <span style="font-size:medium">But first you
                          must learn how to smile as you kill </span><br
                          style="font-size:medium">
                        <span style="font-size:medium">If you want to be
                          like the folks on the hill."</span></div>
                      <div><font size="3"><span><br>
                          </span></font></div>
                      <div><font size="3"><span>- John Lennon<br>
                          </span></font>
                        <div> </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <div><br>
                          On Jan 25, 2013, at 10:35 AM, Jeff Harkins
                          <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:jeffh@moscow.com"
                            target="_blank">jeffh@moscow.com</a>>
                          wrote:<br>
                          <br>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote type="cite">
                          <div> Over the past several years, the
                            vitriolic nature of the dialogue posted to
                            Vision2020 has become increasingly hostile
                            and in many instances, highly personal.<br>
                            <br>
                            It is one thing to have a robust
                            conversation, even a debate, on the pressing
                            issues confronting Moscow and Latah County.
                            That is one of the prime objectives of
                            Vision2020.  It is quite another thing when
                            the dialogue belittles, harasses, threatens,
                            demeans and/or attacks those who express
                            themselves.  Such actions do little to
                            advance the role and mission of Vision2020.<br>
                            <br>
                            Perhaps a review of the Vision2020 Mission
                            Statement will help to remind or raise
                            awareness of the intended purpose of this
                            website - the mission statement is appended
                            below.  <br>
                            <br>
                            I am reasonably confident that the intent of
                            First Step Internet in providing "free"
                            hosting for the site was not to endorse or
                            condone personal attacks - chiding,
                            slurring, harassment and threats.  I know
                            that as a customer of FSI, I am not
                            interested in helping to fund a site that
                            allows unfettered personal attacks on
                            individuals.  The recent "satire" posting
                            demeaning the words of Councilman Wayne
                            Krauss is a prime example of poor and
                            unwarranted behavior.  I know that
                            Councilman Krauss would engage in a spirited
                            conversation on most topics. So, if one has
                            an issue with the Councilman, engage him in
                            a conversation. To mock his view is a
                            discredit to our community - it should stop.<br>
                            <br>
                            I can only wonder what visitors from other
                            communities think about the despicable
                            nature of some of the posts.  Is that the
                            sort of impression we want to promote to
                            visitors?<br>
                            <br>
                            Now, it is true that not everyone posting to
                            the site is guilty of poor behavior - but
                            those who frequent the site know that there
                            are numerous individuals who do their best
                            to mock, harass and denigrate individuals. 
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            Many will argue that the site should be self
                            policing; the "adult participants" should
                            work to discourage poor behavior.  But that
                            doesn't seem to be very effective.  <br>
                            <br>
                            To be candid, if the Vision 2020 posters
                            can't find topics more worthy than mocking
                            an elected official's comments about "moral
                            decline" it is time to shut the blog site
                            down.  There is little to be gained by
                            allowing individuals to denigrate our
                            community and its residents by lending
                            credibility to the small-minded mean and
                            nasty comments of the few.  <br>
                            <br>
                            Perhaps the VIZ has served its purpose and
                            its usefulness. Or, perhaps there should be
                            some "rules" or "protocols" for the
                            Vision2020 site.  Perhaps the site should be
                            restructured - charge small fee, get a new
                            site, establish rules and protocols.  <br>
                            <br>
                            Perhaps those that wish to continue poor
                            behavior and actions that would denigrate
                            selected individuals should acquire their
                            own blog site and post whatever they wish.<br>
                            <br>
                            If the VIZ is to continue, its patrons
                            should consider a refocus on the stated
                            goals and objectives of the VIZ.<br>
                            <br>
                            Finally,  according to the Vision2020
                            website:<br>
                            <br>
                            <table border="0">
                              <tbody>
                                <tr>
                                  <td width="400">
                                    <table>
                                      <tbody>
                                        <tr>
                                          <td colspan="2" width="400">Vision
                                            2020 has no bylaws, budget
                                            or membership requirements.
                                            Its activities are
                                            coordinated by a <u>three-member


                                              steering committee chosen
                                              annually by consensus</u>.</td>
                                        </tr>
                                      </tbody>
                                    </table>
                                  </td>
                                </tr>
                              </tbody>
                            </table>
                            <br>
                            By the way, who are the individuals
                            currently serving on the Steering Committee
                            and when is the election for the positions
                            held?<br>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            <h3>Vision 2020 Mission Statement Adopted
                              March 1995</h3>
                            <ol>
                              <li>To ensure that all parts of our
                                community have an opportunity to take
                                part in visualizing and planning for the
                                community's future. <br>
                                <br>
                              </li>
                              <li>To strengthen citizens' sense of
                                community by promoting awareness,
                                ownership and investment in Moscow's
                                future. <br>
                                <br>
                              </li>
                              <li>To foster cooperation among (and
                                public involvement with) the agencies
                                and organizations that plan for and make
                                decisions about the future of Moscow and
                                Latah County. <br>
                                <br>
                              </li>
                              <li>To raise awareness on the part of
                                citizens and public officials that: <br>
                                <br>
                                <ol>
                                  <li>uncontrolled and unplanned growth
                                    may have negative effects. <br>
                                    <br>
                                  </li>
                                  <li>short-term decisions have
                                    long-term consequences. </li>
                                </ol>
                                <br>
                              </li>
                              <li>To inform ourselves about growth and
                                development issues. <br>
                                <br>
                              </li>
                              <li>To have fun thinking critically and
                                creatively.</li>
                            </ol>
                            <br>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote type="cite">
                      <div><span>=======================================================</span><br>
                        <span> List services made available by First
                          Step Internet,</span><br>
                        <span> serving the communities of the Palouse
                          since 1994.</span><br>
                        <span>               <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a></span><br>
                        <span>          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"
                            target="_blank">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a></span><br>
                        <span>=======================================================</span></div>
                    </blockquote>
                  </blockquote>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                </div>
                <br>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <div><span>=======================================================</span><br>
                <span> List services made available by First Step
                  Internet,</span><br>
                <span> serving the communities of the Palouse since
                  1994.</span><br>
                <span>               <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a></span><br>
                <span>          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a></span><br>
                <span>=======================================================</span></div>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a>
          <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a>
=======================================================</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>