<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>In addition to the remarks of Saundra, it should be added that the society that Krauss think once existed, never, in fact did.<br><br></div>See: <i><span id="btAsinTitle">The Way We Never Were: American Families And The Nostalgia Trap</span></i> by Stephanie Coontz.<br>
</div><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Way-We-Never-Were-Nostalgia/dp/0465090974">http://www.amazon.com/Way-We-Never-Were-Nostalgia/dp/0465090974</a><br><br></div>and the chapter entitled "The Family" in<br><h3 class="">
<a class="" href="http://www.amazon.com/Legends-Cherished-Myths-American-History/dp/B000GG4Z2M/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1359234895&sr=1-6&keywords=legends%2C+lies">Legends, Lies, and Cherished Myths of American History</a> <span class="">by <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Richard-Shenkman/e/B000APN31I/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_6?qid=1359234895&sr=1-6">Richard Shenkman</a></span>
<span class="">(Jun 19, 1992)</span>
</h3><p>When anyone spouts the lack of religious beliefs and practices as the cause of the current problems of society and the world, the facts go way out the window -- they (the facts) are so inconvenient to an irrational discussion of very complex problems. Facts, not fantasy, are needed to solve problems. When the flood waters are rising, it is time to stop praying and start repairing and sandbagging dikes else you are going to get your ass very wet.</p>
<p><br></p><p>w.<br></p></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 8:53 PM, Saundra Lund <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm" target="_blank">v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I was going to keep my mouth shut about this, but I certainly hope folks realize that Krauss either is talking out of his rear or is utterly ignorant about the history of school shootings in the US.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">An inconvenient fact for Krauss & his ilk (ask Wayne Price for a definition) is that there have been school shootings for as long as there has been a United States of America. Even more inconvenient for Krauss is the fact that the <b>vast majority</b> of those school shootings took place while Krauss’ “God” (whatever that means) was still in the schools and in the government (whatever he meant with that incoherent rambling).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The most charitable spin I can put on Krauss’ ignorance is that he’s nothing more than a Johnny-Come-Lately to the issue of school shootings. More likely, it seems to me, is that he’s done drunk the Kool-Aid of those with a vested interest in smoke & mirrors. Given that he’s significantly older than am I, perhaps his memory is just faulty and his “glory days-ing” of the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s is a function of that faulty memory.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I do, however, find it difficult to fathom that he sincerely doesn’t remember Charles Whitman.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Here’s the thing: the argument that reasonable people like me are making is that given the <b>fact</b> that school shootings have been happening in <b>America</b> for as long as there have been schools in America, the issue isn’t one of some theocracy-based imaginary moral decline of our society and its people, but rather it’s one of technological advances that have resulted in semi-automatic guns and high capacity magazines. It’s the ability of miscreants and/or those who are mentally ill to kill and injure lots of people in minutes . . . in seconds. Factually, <b>that’s</b> been the significant change, not that people are only recently wielding guns and targeting schools.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">And, that’s a fact that Krauss et al choose to ignore.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I am beyond disappointed that people like Krauss choose to stick their heads in the sand and be blinded by rhetoric rather than educated by facts. I attended a forum some years back when Krauss (as a citizen and not a council member) asked a thoughtful and intelligent question. Regrettably, any critical thinking skills he once possessed seem to have left the building.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Further, if a council member chooses to lecture constituents, we-as-constituents have a right to expect that the lecture at <b>least</b> be factually accurate rather than flatly incorrect inflammatory rhetoric lifted straight from partisan echo chambers.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">And, I’m nearly as disappointed that not a single soul on the Moscow City Council bothered to correct Krauss’ ignorance. Whether or not I voted for a particular Council member, I expect – no, I <b>demand -- </b>intelligent and educated discussion, both of which were absent from Krauss’ “lecture” in that Council meeting discussion.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Krauss also preached about the way weapons and ammunition have been “flying off the shelves” following Sandy Hook and subjected us to his lame grasping for causes and explanations. Conspicuously absent from his musings is the individualistic greed that’s infected American society and is used by some as justification for treating others as “less than.” That same greedy individualism that fails to recognize a huge component of this nation’s greatness is that we as a society are far, far greater than the sum of our individuals. That same selfish greed that seems to have filled far too many with an unearned sense of entitlement such that they are willing to throw all others, particularly those they disagree with, by the side of the road in ruins. That same greed than is killing America’s compassion for other Americans and for humanity as a whole.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Notably absent from Krauss’ screed is another inconvenient fact: the vast majority of those purchases he attributes to fear were by repeat buyers. I personally know several people who were a part of that rush, and none of them were first time “buyers.” The kind of standard response I received was something like, “<wink, wink, nudge, nudge> Yeah, I bought because maybe semi-autos & hi-cap mags are going to be banned. But, you know me – any excuse for a new toy.” It was sometimes accompanied by comment about the explanation being enough to satisfy a SO.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">To me, that’s kind of significant. Does that explain all of the purchases? Probably not.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">But, I <b>do</b> think that people like Krauss need to start looking at their own behavior and the role they play in completely irrational hysteria. It is, IMHO, flatly irresponsible to fan the paranoid fear flames of the reactionary right the way Krauss and so many of his fellow GOPers & TPers have done <b>and</b> continue to do. Personally, I think it counter-productive and inarguably immoral for elected officials to validate ignorance, bias, and bigotry as Krauss did. But, it’s sooo much easier to look at others rather than at one’s self, isn’t it?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Krauss also lamented “taking God out of the schools and God out of government.” Does anyone have a clue as to what he meant? As a person of faith, I certainly don’t. And, as a person who went to public schools in the Bible belt in the 1960s and 1970s, I haven’t a clue.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Perhaps it’s more of his inclination, facts be damned, to romanticize the past, something it seems a certain segment of the population has always been inclined to do as they age.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I certainly hate to think that Krauss believes that people of faith – children or adults – check their God at <b>any</b> door. But, perhaps that’s what he believes. If so, it makes me very sad that he has <b>so little belief</b> in the faith of others.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Or, perhaps he’s talking about himself . . . or people he knows. I think we all know them – Sunday Christians. You know, like those good Christian farmer men in Georgia who shot into the girls’ school in Gainesville when school was in session . . . while they were drunk. Or, the good Christian old fool who shot into the populated playground of St. Mary’s in New York. Both of those instances, BTW, took place in the 1800s. And on & on & on.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Or maybe . . . just maybe . . . the answer to Krauss’ question is people like himself who think the worst of educated and informed people with whom they disagree. People who assume the faith of others is checked at the door. People who refuse to accept that the faith of others is just as strong as is their own and is a valid basis for morality.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">People who mistakenly think that God requires public recognition in schools and in government.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">People who think that “different” is less than.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Ignorant old fools who think it’s men who solve problems.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">In any case, I found his comments sad, misguided, and wholly inappropriate. No matter how much he may wish otherwise, this <b>is</b> the United States of America. In addition to the Second Amendment, I encourage him to read – actually read <b>and</b> understand – the Constitution of the United States of America (and not the pocket annotated version so popular in some circles) and pay particular attention the <b>First Amendment.</b><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">That said, if Krauss wants a theocracy, there are plenty of places in the world he can find that, but the USA <b>isn’t</b> one of them, nor should it be one of them because of our Constitution and Bill of Rights.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Somehow, I don’t think Krauss would be any happier in a theocracy than he is here.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Saundra Lund<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Moscow, ID<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">~ The Dalai Lama<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a> [<a href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com" target="_blank">mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Tom Hansen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 23, 2013 3:48 PM</span></p><div class="im"><br><b>To:</b> Moscow Vision 2020<br><b>Cc:</b> Jeanne McHale; Fritz Knorr; Lois<br></div><div class="im"><b>Subject:</b> [Vision2020] Wayne Krauss on Gun Violence and What is Wrong in America<u></u><u></u></div>
<p></p></div></div><div class="im"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><img src="cid:image001.png@01CDFA2C.B3C1A5D0" alt="image.png" border="0" height="480" width="640"><u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Moscow City Council session (January 22, 2013)<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdpEyaWatWo" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.5pt">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdpEyaWatWo</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal">"Moscow Cares"<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.MoscowCares.com" target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Tom Hansen<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Moscow, Idaho<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">
"<span style="font-size:13.5pt">There's room at the top they are telling you still </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">But first you must learn how to smile as you kill <br>
If you want to be like the folks on the hill."</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">- John Lennon<br><br><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">
<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><br>=======================================================<br>
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