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Paul,<br><br>You say, 'The sad fact is that if
      the assault weapons ban had been in place, Newtown would have
      happened anyway.'<br><br>How is this a fact? Do you have evidence that this young man would have had the same access to the weapon if it were not in his home? <br><br>How is this not just your opinion? <br><br>Sunil<br><br><div><div id="SkyDrivePlaceholder"></div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 11:39:56 -0800<br>From: godshatter@yahoo.com<br>To: philosopher.joe@gmail.com<br>CC: vision2020@moscow.com; rhayes@frontier.com<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Happy gun violence day!<br><br>
  
    
  
  
    <div class="ecxmoz-cite-prefix"><br>
      It's infringing upon a right that the Constitution itself says
      cannot be infringed upon.  So, in order to do so anyway, it had
      damn well better be a very needed law.  The sad fact is that if
      the assault weapons ban had been in place, Newtown would have
      happened anyway.  The guy who did that did it for a reason that
      was more complicated than "Hey look!  Here's an AR-15!  There's
      nothing on Netflix, the gym's closed, I'm climbing the walls here,
      maybe I should go shoot some kids!"<br>
      <br>
      I have no doubt that you can buy a gun that works just as well as
      an AR-15 but that doesn't have a pistol grip or a flash suppressor
      now.  Shortly after this ban, the just-barely non-assault version
      of the rifle will come out.  The statistics will show that there
      was a drop in "assault weapon" shootings, because the AR-15 mark
      II won't be counted in them, and the politicians will try to con
      the people into thinking they actually helped anything.  This ban
      is stupid.  It's all political, and it's pointless in a practical
      sense.<br>
      <br>
      Paul<br>
      <br>
      On 01/19/2013 08:29 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:6B8DFFFF-948D-42D3-82F1-53422AA1A82F@gmail.com">
      
      <div>This is long but let me make clear that there is a
        considerable difference between the view that we shouldn't
        impinge on rights on a whim and the view I was criticizing. I
        think we're all in agreement that whims won't do it.<br>
        <br>
        On Jan 19, 2013, at 7:21 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>
        wrote:<br>
        <br>
      </div>
      <div><span></span></div>
      <blockquote>
        <div>
          
          <div class="ecxmoz-cite-prefix"><br>
            Let's see.  <br>
            <br>
            1.  When the Constitution was written, we'd just finished a
            war in which we rebelled against those in authority and
            claimed our independence as a nation for ourselves.<br>
            <br>
            2.  Shortly after that, we wrote our own Constitution, which
            describes the ways in which government is limited.  No more
            royal decrees for us.<br>
            <br>
            3.  When adding the Bill of Rights, the restriction against
            infringing on our right to bear arms was added as the second
            such amendment, right after freedom of speech.<br>
            <br>
            4.  One assumes from this that the right to bear arms was
            indeed important to our forefathers.  And not because they
            wanted us to hunt.<br>
            <br>
            Given all that, I think it's reasonable to assume that the
            right in question shouldn't be infringed upon on a whim. 
            Events like Newtown are rare, and each one gets splashed
            across the news for a month or more because it's very
            dramatic.  I don't like seeing children die either, but
            reducing magazine sizes to 10 rounds and removing
            scary-looking rifles while leaving just-as-functional rifles
            alone isn't going to stop the next spree shooting, even if
            it actually makes it's way into law.  Klebold was on this
            tenth 10-round magazine when he killed himself.  This guy
            that did Newtown would have had just as easy access to his
            mothers AR-15, since there is no way in hell they will pass
            something that will make people have to turn them in.  An
            ineffective law passed only because people are riled up
            about kids getting shot isn't worth weakening the 2nd
            amendment, in my opinion.<br>
            <br>
            I can get behind better background checks, well thought-out
            restrictions on people suspected of being mentally ill
            (that's a whole other can of worms when we are talking about
            people's rights, but we should start the conversation),
            better data collection, and incentives to keep weapons
            secured and safe.  Banning assault weapons, though, is a
            farce.  It's a political ploy that's using people's fear and
            anger to pass something that makes it look like they are
            doing something that will help.<br>
            <br>
            I'm not a member of the NRA, and I think they go way
            overboard sometimes.  Still, I haven't seen them or anyone
            else trying to claim that gun ownership should be
            unrestricted.  We already have gun registration, background
            checks, cooling off periods, and restrictions against actual
            assault weapons (i.e. fully automatic weapons).<br>
            <br>
            Paul<br>
            <br>
            On 01/19/2013 02:01 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote cite="mid:CA+fbP8xro7ZU8V2nAfqGCG9ao6iu9xSdk_7xUwR3nHeFUQ_Okg@mail.gmail.com">How is the second amendment under threat?<br>
            <br>
            The NRA interpretation of the 2nd amendment is absurd. It is
            in fact so absurd that neither you nor anyone else would try
            to defend it in a public setting. Which is why this post
            will be followed by silence from you and others.<br>
            <br>
            The idea that the right to own guns is UNRESTRICTED is
            absurd. NO rights are unrestricted. If speech can be
            restricted, then so can the sale and purchase of guns. And
            speech is and can be restricted.<br>
            <br>
            If the NRA position has something to do with RIGHTS, then
            you should be able to name another right that is similarly
            unrestricted. But you can't. The NRA position has nothing to
            do with rights. It has to do with gun sales.<br>
            <br>
            <div class="ecxgmail_quote">On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 11:11 AM,
              Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span>
              wrote:<br>
              <blockquote class="ecxgmail_quote" style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                <div>
                  <div><br>
                    The nerve of those people!  Having a rally in
                    support of one of the amendments to the
                    Constitution!  How despicable!  How un-American!<br>
                    <br>
                    Paul<br>
                    <br>
                    On 01/19/2013 09:32 AM, <a href="mailto:rhayes@frontier.com">rhayes@frontier.com</a>
                    wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote>
                    <div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif">
                      <div><span>Happy Gun Violence day today everyone!
                          Hope you have a bang!</span></div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
                        <div style="font-family:times new roman,new\00000d\00000a                          york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">
                          <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
                              <a href="mailto:vision2020-request@moscow.com">"vision2020-request@moscow.com"</a>
                              <a href="mailto:vision2020-request@moscow.com"><vision2020-request@moscow.com></a><br>
                              <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
                              <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
                              <br>
                              <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
                              Saturday, January 19, 2013 6:06 AM<br>
                              <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
                              Vision2020 Digest, Vol 79, Issue 205<br>
                            </font> </div>
                          <br>
                          Send Vision2020 mailing list submissions to<br>
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                          so it is more specific<br>
                          than "Re: Contents of Vision2020 digest..."<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          Today's Topics:<br>
                          <br>
                            1. Saturday is "National Gun Appreciation
                          Day" (Ron Force)<br>
                            2. Re: Saturday is "National Gun
                          Appreciation Day" (Tom Hansen)<br>
                            3. Caturday (January 19, 2013) (Tom Hansen)<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
                          <br>
                          Message: 1<br>
                          Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 20:40:44 -0800 (PST)<br>
                          From: Ron Force <<a href="mailto:rforce2003@yahoo.com">rforce2003@yahoo.com</a>><br>
                          To: Moscow Vision2020 <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
                          Subject: [Vision2020] Saturday is "National
                          Gun Appreciation Day"<br>
                          Message-ID:<br>
                              <<a href="mailto:1358570444.77938.YahooMailNeo@web162701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com">1358570444.77938.YahooMailNeo@web162701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com</a>><br>
                          Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
                          <br>
                          <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fWHFMQ8Wlk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fWHFMQ8Wlk</a><br>
                          <br>
                          ?<br>
                          Ron Force<br>
                          Moscow Idaho USA<br>
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                          <br>
                          Message: 2<br>
                          Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 20:59:17 -0800<br>
                          From: Tom Hansen <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>><br>
                          To: Ron Force <<a href="mailto:rforce2003@yahoo.com">rforce2003@yahoo.com</a>><br>
                          Cc: Moscow Vision2020 <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
                          Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Saturday is
                          "National Gun Appreciation Day"<br>
                          Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:CD416371-3602-4B0A-8D55-2B2508E88FB8@moscow.com">CD416371-3602-4B0A-8D55-2B2508E88FB8@moscow.com</a>><br>
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                          <br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          Gun Rally Planned This Weekend in Coeur
                          d'Alene<br>
                          <a href="http://tinyurl.com/agnm5kj" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/agnm5kj</a><br>
                          <br>
                          COEUR D'ALENE, Idaho (AP) - Gun advocates in
                          northern Idaho are planning a rally and
                          encouraging participants to openly carry
                          weapons as allowed by Idaho law.<br>
                              <br>
                          The Coeur d'Alene Press reports (<a href="http://bit.ly/WdqSJr" target="_blank">http://bit.ly/WdqSJr</a>)
                          that the Second Amendment rally and gun
                          appreciation event is planned for 1 p.m.
                          Saturday at Black Sheep Sporting Goods in
                          Coeur d'Alene.<br>
                              <br>
                          Organizers say guest speakers include state
                          lawmakers.<br>
                          <br>
                          --------------------------------------<br>
                          <br>
                          Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .<br>
                          <br>
                          "Moscow Cares"<br>
                          <a href="http://www.MoscowCares.com" target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a><br>
                            <br>
                          Tom Hansen<br>
                          Moscow, Idaho<br>
                          <br>
                          "There's room at the top they are telling you
                          still <br>
                          But first you must learn how to smile as you
                          kill <br>
                          If you want to be like the folks on the hill."<br>
                          <br>
                          - John Lennon<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          On Jan 18, 2013, at 8:40 PM, Ron Force <<a href="mailto:rforce2003@yahoo.com">rforce2003@yahoo.com</a>>
                          wrote:<br>
                          <br>
                          > <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fWHFMQ8Wlk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fWHFMQ8Wlk</a><br>
                          >  <br>
                          > Ron Force<br>
                          > Moscow Idaho USA<br>
                          >
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                          ------------------------------<br>
                          <br>
                          Message: 3<br>
                          Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 06:06:20 -0800<br>
                          From: Tom Hansen <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>><br>
                          To: Moscow Vision 2020 <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
                          Subject: [Vision2020] Caturday (January 19,
                          2013)<br>
                          Message-ID: <</div>
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    <br>
  

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