I think we're talking passed one another. For one thing, I don't remember saying anytime recently that I was in favor of banning assault rifles, though I have discussed some arguments for or against it. For instance, in the post below the point is that gun control is not necessarily a violation of the 2nd amendment; that the NRA view is an absurd view. <br>
<br>Yet it seems that no matter what I say, or how careful I am to say it, you and others read into it some desire to ban guns. But it is consistent for one to think that (a) some forms of gun control are OK (in theory), even given our 2nd amendment rights, and (b) no particular form of gun control makes practical sense (for instance, assault rifles figure in a relatively small number of acts of gun violence, so banning them won't have a relevant impact). In fact, I have leanings toward (b), but it is a complex issue. I lot of the stuff that Saundra and others have said makes me think more about it. In any event, (b) is logically unrelated to (a), though bad arguments against gun control confuse the two. As for (b), whether or not a particular form of gun control makes practical sense would need to be discussed on a case by case basis. Joe<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

  
    
  
  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <div><br>
      Let's see.  <br>
      <br>
      1.  When the Constitution was written, we'd just finished a war in
      which we rebelled against those in authority and claimed our
      independence as a nation for ourselves.<br>
      <br>
      2.  Shortly after that, we wrote our own Constitution, which
      describes the ways in which government is limited.  No more royal
      decrees for us.<br>
      <br>
      3.  When adding the Bill of Rights, the restriction against
      infringing on our right to bear arms was added as the second such
      amendment, right after freedom of speech.<br>
      <br>
      4.  One assumes from this that the right to bear arms was indeed
      important to our forefathers.  And not because they wanted us to
      hunt.<br>
      <br>
      Given all that, I think it's reasonable to assume that the right
      in question shouldn't be infringed upon on a whim.  Events like
      Newtown are rare, and each one gets splashed across the news for a
      month or more because it's very dramatic.  I don't like seeing
      children die either, but reducing magazine sizes to 10 rounds and
      removing scary-looking rifles while leaving just-as-functional
      rifles alone isn't going to stop the next spree shooting, even if
      it actually makes it's way into law.  Klebold was on this tenth
      10-round magazine when he killed himself.  This guy that did
      Newtown would have had just as easy access to his mothers AR-15,
      since there is no way in hell they will pass something that will
      make people have to turn them in.  An ineffective law passed only
      because people are riled up about kids getting shot isn't worth
      weakening the 2nd amendment, in my opinion.<br>
      <br>
      I can get behind better background checks, well thought-out
      restrictions on people suspected of being mentally ill (that's a
      whole other can of worms when we are talking about people's
      rights, but we should start the conversation), better data
      collection, and incentives to keep weapons secured and safe. 
      Banning assault weapons, though, is a farce.  It's a political
      ploy that's using people's fear and anger to pass something that
      makes it look like they are doing something that will help.<br>
      <br>
      I'm not a member of the NRA, and I think they go way overboard
      sometimes.  Still, I haven't seen them or anyone else trying to
      claim that gun ownership should be unrestricted.  We already have
      gun registration, background checks, cooling off periods, and
      restrictions against actual assault weapons (i.e. fully automatic
      weapons).<br>
      <br>
      Paul<br>
      <br>
      On 01/19/2013 02:01 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">How is the second amendment under threat?<br>
      <br>
      The NRA interpretation of the 2nd amendment is absurd. It is in
      fact so absurd that neither you nor anyone else would try to
      defend it in a public setting. Which is why this post will be
      followed by silence from you and others.<br>
      <br>
      The idea that the right to own guns is UNRESTRICTED is absurd. NO
      rights are unrestricted. If speech can be restricted, then so can
      the sale and purchase of guns. And speech is and can be
      restricted.<br>
      <br>
      If the NRA position has something to do with RIGHTS, then you
      should be able to name another right that is similarly
      unrestricted. But you can't. The NRA position has nothing to do
      with rights. It has to do with gun sales.<br>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Paul
        Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span>
        wrote:<br>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
            <div><br>
              The nerve of those people!  Having a rally in support of
              one of the amendments to the Constitution!  How
              despicable!  How un-American!<br>
              <br>
              Paul<br>
              <br>
              On 01/19/2013 09:32 AM, <a href="mailto:rhayes@frontier.com" target="_blank">rhayes@frontier.com</a>
              wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif">
                <div><span>Happy Gun Violence day today everyone! Hope
                    you have a bang!</span></div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div style="font-family:verdana,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
                  <div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">
                    <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> <a href="mailto:vision2020-request@moscow.com" target="_blank">"vision2020-request@moscow.com"</a>
                        <a href="mailto:vision2020-request@moscow.com" target="_blank"><vision2020-request@moscow.com></a><br>
                        <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
                        <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a> <br>
                        <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
                        Saturday, January 19, 2013 6:06 AM<br>
                        <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
                        Vision2020 Digest, Vol 79, Issue 205<br>
                      </font> </div>
                    <br>
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                    is more specific<br>
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                    <br>
                    Today's Topics:<br>
                    <br>
                      1. Saturday is "National Gun Appreciation Day"
                    (Ron Force)<br>
                      2. Re: Saturday is "National Gun Appreciation Day"
                    (Tom Hansen)<br>
                      3. Caturday (January 19, 2013) (Tom Hansen)<br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
                    <br>
                    Message: 1<br>
                    Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 20:40:44 -0800 (PST)<br>
                    From: Ron Force <<a href="mailto:rforce2003@yahoo.com" target="_blank">rforce2003@yahoo.com</a>><br>
                    To: Moscow Vision2020 <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
                    Subject: [Vision2020] Saturday is "National Gun
                    Appreciation Day"<br>
                    Message-ID:<br>
                        <<a href="mailto:1358570444.77938.YahooMailNeo@web162701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com" target="_blank">1358570444.77938.YahooMailNeo@web162701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com</a>><br>
                    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
                    <br>
                    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fWHFMQ8Wlk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fWHFMQ8Wlk</a><br>
                    <br>
                    ?<br>
                    Ron Force<br>
                    Moscow Idaho USA<br>
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                    <br>
                    ------------------------------<br>
                    <br>
                    Message: 2<br>
                    Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 20:59:17 -0800<br>
                    From: Tom Hansen <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>><br>
                    To: Ron Force <<a href="mailto:rforce2003@yahoo.com" target="_blank">rforce2003@yahoo.com</a>><br>
                    Cc: Moscow Vision2020 <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
                    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Saturday is "National Gun
                    Appreciation Day"<br>
                    Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:CD416371-3602-4B0A-8D55-2B2508E88FB8@moscow.com" target="_blank">CD416371-3602-4B0A-8D55-2B2508E88FB8@moscow.com</a>><br>
                    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    Gun Rally Planned This Weekend in Coeur d'Alene<br>
                    <a href="http://tinyurl.com/agnm5kj" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/agnm5kj</a><br>
                    <br>
                    COEUR D'ALENE, Idaho (AP) - Gun advocates in
                    northern Idaho are planning a rally and encouraging
                    participants to openly carry weapons as allowed by
                    Idaho law.<br>
                        <br>
                    The Coeur d'Alene Press reports (<a href="http://bit.ly/WdqSJr" target="_blank">http://bit.ly/WdqSJr</a>) that the
                    Second Amendment rally and gun appreciation event is
                    planned for 1 p.m. Saturday at Black Sheep Sporting
                    Goods in Coeur d'Alene.<br>
                        <br>
                    Organizers say guest speakers include state
                    lawmakers.<br>
                    <br>
                    --------------------------------------<br>
                    <br>
                    Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .<br>
                    <br>
                    "Moscow Cares"<br>
                    <a href="http://www.MoscowCares.com" target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a><br>
                      <br>
                    Tom Hansen<br>
                    Moscow, Idaho<br>
                    <br>
                    "There's room at the top they are telling you still
                    <br>
                    But first you must learn how to smile as you kill <br>
                    If you want to be like the folks on the hill."<br>
                    <br>
                    - John Lennon<br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    On Jan 18, 2013, at 8:40 PM, Ron Force <<a href="mailto:rforce2003@yahoo.com" target="_blank">rforce2003@yahoo.com</a>>

                    wrote:<br>
                    <br>
                    > <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fWHFMQ8Wlk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fWHFMQ8Wlk</a><br>
                    >  <br>
                    > Ron Force<br>
                    > Moscow Idaho USA<br>
                    >
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                    <br>
                    ------------------------------<br>
                    <br>
                    Message: 3<br>
                    Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 06:06:20 -0800<br>
                    From: Tom Hansen <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>><br>
                    To: Moscow Vision 2020 <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
                    Subject: [Vision2020] Caturday (January 19, 2013)<br>
                    Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:62F5B94C-846B-409E-9683-39CFBE887204@moscow.com" target="_blank">62F5B94C-846B-409E-9683-39CFBE887204@moscow.com</a>><br>
                    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
                    <br>
                    Courtesy of Mail Online (London, England) at:<br>
                    <br>
                    <a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2263604/Tiny-obese-kitty-loses-HALF-body-weight-finds-new-home.html?printingPage=true" target="_blank">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2263604/Tiny-obese-kitty-loses-HALF-body-weight-finds-new-home.html?printingPage=true</a><br>

                    <br>
                    -------------------------------------<br>
                    Now that's something to purr about! Tiny the (very)
                    fat cat loses HALF his body weight and finds a new
                    home<br>
                    <br>
                    Tiny started out at 30.2lbs - about three times the
                    size of average cat<br>
                    He was put on strict calorie-controlled diet<br>
                    Lost half his body weight, now clocking in at 16lbs<br>
                    Adopted by foster parent Nancy Garon<br>
                    Tiny the formerly obese cat has a lot to purr about
                    these days.<br>
                    <br>
                    Not only has he lost half his body weight, the
                    orphaned feline has found a new home.<br>
                    <br>
                    The pudgy pet was dumped outside the Fredericton
                    SPCA in New Brunswick, Canada, just over a year ago
                    weighing a whopping 30lbs.<br>
                    <br>
                    But, after sticking to a strict diet, the
                    ironically-named feline is now fit and healthy and
                    has been officially adopted by foster parent, Nancy
                    Garon.<br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    Garon even threw an adoption party for Tiny on
                    Saturday, dressing the noticeably more slender cat
                    in a sparkly bow tie.<br>
                    <br>
                    'It was a nice way to celebrate all the work,
                    dedication and time that went into Tiny,' LeeAnn
                    Haggerty, the director of education at the shelter.<br>
                    <br>
                    'She's really bonded with him and it's nice for
                    everyone to know that he'll be doing well in Nancy's
                    care.'<br>
                    <br>
                    The animal has a penchant or bow ties, which are
                    made by some of the many volunteers who have tracked
                    his weight loss progress on Facebook.<br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    Donations and sales of Tiny's Ties have already
                    raised $10,000 for the Fredericton SPCA, Today
                    reported.<br>
                    <br>
                    Tiny now ways 16 pounds and the weight loss has
                    transformed his life.<br>
                    <br>
                    'As soon as he lost the first six pounds you could
                    start to see the changes,' Haggerty said. <br>
                    <br>
                    To not be able to groom yourself must've been pretty
                    frustrating. When he walked, he used to take a few
                    steps, but now he runs all over the place. He is a
                    very playful cat.'<br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    In August, the cat had lost more than 10 pounds,
                    weighing in at 19.1lbs. Haggerty said back then that
                    it had taken a lot of hard work to bring Tiny's
                    weight down to that point.<br>
                    <br>
                    'When he came to the shelter, we knew this weight
                    was a medical emergency, really that obesity in pets
                    can be fatal; his weight was quite a concern,' she
                    told CBS News.<br>
                    <br>
                    Tiny, who at that point was about three times the
                    size of an average house cat, was taken to Dr Nicole
                    Jewett at Valley Veterinary Hospital, who created a
                    special calorie-controlled weight-loss plan for him
                    at a foster home.<br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    The drastic weight loss has been accompanied by a
                    significant improvement in Tiny?s appearance and
                    well-being, according to his veterinarian.<br>
                    <br>
                    When the pet first arrived at the center, his coat
                    and eyes were dull, and he could only make a few
                    steps at a time before he would have to lie down. <br>
                    <br>
                    Thanks to his new svelte physique, however, Tiny has
                    become more playful and active.  <br>
                    <br>
                    'He runs, he plays ? it's amazing,' Haggerty said.<br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    Another fringe benefit that came as a result of
                    Tiny's impressive slim-down is popularity.<br>
                    <br>
                    Fans send in fabric to the SPCA, which they use to
                    make the signature Tiny ties and sell them on the
                    site Etsy.com to raise medical funds for animals.<br>
                    <br>
                    According to Haggerty, about 40-60 per cent of North
                    American pets are overweight, and in cats, it can
                    lead to diabetes, arthritis, organ issues and even
                    death.<br>
                    <br>
                    --------------------<br>
                    <br>
                    Fat cat: When Tiny arrived at the Fredericton SPCA,
                    he weighed in at 30.2lbs, or about three times the
                    size of an average house cat <br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    --------------------<br>
                    <br>
                    New life: Tiny, pictured, the formerly obese cat has
                    found a new home after losing half his body weight<br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    --------------------<br>
                    <br>
                    Festive feline: Tiny, pictured, over the holidays is
                    far more active now he's dropped the weight<br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    -------------------------------------<br>
                    <br>
                    Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .<br>
                    <br>
                    "Moscow Cares"<br>
                    <a href="http://www.moscowcares.com/" target="_blank">http://www.moscowcares.com/</a><br>
                      <br>
                    Tom Hansen<br>
                    Moscow, Idaho<br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
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                    <br>
                    ------------------------------<br>
                    <br>
=======================================================<br>
                    List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>
                    serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>
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                              mailto:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
=======================================================<br>
                    <br>
                    End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 79, Issue 205<br>
                    *******************************************<br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <br>
              <fieldset></fieldset>
              <br>
              <pre>=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a>
          <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a>
=======================================================</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <br>
          </div>
          <br>
          =======================================================<br>
           List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>
           serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>
                         <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>
                    mailto:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
          =======================================================<br>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div>

</blockquote></div><br>