<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:8pt"><div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Joe,</SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">I am not too picky about what health care system we have, just not the one we have. I would take Canada's, France, Germany, Finland, Norway, Italy, UK, Japan, just about any other industrialized nation's health care system is better. I would implement it the same way all the other nations on the planet implemented their plans. The wheel doesn't have to be reinvented, we are just going to the store and picking one out. Any wheel beats the flat one we are riding on.</SPAN></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 11px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 11px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">I do have a problem with <SPAN id=misspell-0 class=mark>Obamacare</SPAN> because it sees insurance companies and <SPAN id=misspell-1><SPAN id=misspell-1><SPAN>pharmaceutical</SPAN></SPAN> companies</SPAN> as the <SPAN id=misspell-2><SPAN>solution</SPAN></SPAN> to the health care crisis rather then the cause. Throwing trillions more at these companies will not improve our health care or reduce its costs, or increase access to it. And forcing people to participate is wrong. These are the last pockets we should be shoving more of our money into. </SPAN></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 11px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 11px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">You are dead wrong on your <SPAN id=misspell-3><SPAN>perception</SPAN></SPAN> of emergency room care. Emergency Rooms have to provide life saving care, but they can charge what they want to and sue quickly to recover the money, and do, they are <SPAN id=misspell-4><SPAN>extremely</SPAN></SPAN> aggressive, check any court house documents, call any bankruptcy lawyer. If you think Emergency Room care is free to the user then you should go to one and tell them you have no insurance, see what happens. Poor people, and those denied affordable health insurance, go to the emergency room because they wait too long to see a doctor because it costs so much, and hope the problem will resolve itself. It doesn't, and the problem needs more <SPAN
id=misspell-1><SPAN>advanced</SPAN></SPAN> treatment. </SPAN></div>
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<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 11px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Donovan J. Arnold</SPAN></div>
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<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px" class=hr contentEditable=false readonly="true"></DIV><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe@gmail.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com> <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Scott Dredge <scooterd408@hotmail.com>; viz <vision2020@moscow.com> <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, January 4, 2013 12:49 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Vision2020] Another Answer to School Shootings . . .<BR></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV id=yiv1388956964>You're still not telling us what you would do instead, Donovan. In the ideal world, how should things work?<BR><BR>Next question: In the non-ideal world (the one that we all live in), how would we put into practice something even close to that proposal?<BR><BR>And I'm not wrong about the emergency room issue, or other related issue. Some folks don't have wages to garnish. Yet they still get sick. Those costs are then covered by all of us. Some of us pick up the costs for all. Personally I don't mind that but some folks do. So the old system needed some change. A better change would be ...?<BR><BR>Your grip is with insurance companies, not <SPAN id=misspell-1 class=mark>Obamacare</SPAN> per <SPAN id=misspell-2 class=mark>se</SPAN>. Any form of governmental heath care would be equally problematic, given the way insurance companies operate (examples of which Bob has noted). And if you look closely it is more of a criticism of
Capitalism in general, not just insurance companies. As a country, we're not ready for that conversation, so I don't find those criticisms helpful. What do we do about that? <BR><BR>Here is one of my New Year's resolutions: Try to get folks to stop complaining about the government, as if it weren't a group of human beings just like you and me. People in general are not evil. We're selfish in some but not all respects and altruistic motivations will trump selfishness (in general) provided they are offered in the right way. In the case of politicians, at least they are TRYING to solve problems. Say what you want but unless and until you decide to take action and do something better -- or at least attempt to do something different or offer a better solution -- you are not helping. If anything, you make the situation worse. Who in their right mind would want to run for public office? Trying to solve problems in an imperfect world where there is disagreement
about everything is just asking for abuse.<BR><BR>We're a democracy. WE have gotten ourselves into this mess, not THEM. They have their role precisely BECAUSE we gave it to them by electing them. It is up to US (and by that I mean each of us) to get us out of whatever problems we face. Joe<BR><BR>
<DIV class=yiv1388956964gmail_quote>On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 10:37 AM, Donovan Arnold <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
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<DIV><SPAN>I don't think you can compare car insurance to Health <SPAN><SPAN>Insurance</SPAN></SPAN>. But let us go that route. I've paid about 18K in insurance with <SPAN id=misspell-3 class=mark>USAA</SPAN> over the last 20 years. I did so just in case someone without insurance hit me, or I got into an accident that was my fault. In <SPAN><SPAN>September</SPAN></SPAN> I was <SPAN><SPAN>rear-ended</SPAN></SPAN> by a lady that didn't have <SPAN><SPAN>insurance</SPAN></SPAN>. They refuse to fix my car and they won't give me enough money to replace my car. I could have bought 3 or 4 of my cars for $18K plus the interest.</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11px"><SPAN>Insurance companies increase the costs, they are about collecting money, not paying out. They have policies, lawyers, paid off politicians and <SPAN><SPAN>bureaucrats</SPAN></SPAN> to keep every dollar they can from going out. Insurance agencies <SPAN><SPAN>encourage</SPAN></SPAN> medical services to charge huge rates that people cannot afford so people have to by insurance. Then they deny payments that they promise. </SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV><SPAN>The reason your hospital bed costs $5000 a night is because people are scared into paying it. If nobody did, they would have to charge a reasonable rate. </SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11px"><SPAN>If you force people to pay into the <SPAN>health care</SPAN> system, you need to clean it up like every other <SPAN><SPAN>industrialized</SPAN></SPAN> nation has. The US taxpayer is getting robbed by the huge costs related to health care. Then robbed again when they try to actually use a health care system they have paid <SPAN><SPAN>enormous</SPAN></SPAN> amounts of money into already. </SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11px"><SPAN>You are incorrect about how the emergency room works. Emergency Rooms charge each person that comes through the door. If they don't have insurance they charge <VAR></VAR>that person about 1000% their costs. The person cannot afford it, so they sue within 60 days, and garnish their wages, they recover about 20% of that bill, which was 2X what it cost them, and destroy that person's financial health for seven years. </SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11px"><SPAN>Donovan J. Arnold</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; MIN-HEIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px"></DIV><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Joe Campbell <<A href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</A>><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Donovan Arnold <<A href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</A>> <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Scott Dredge <<A href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</A>>; viz <<A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A>> <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, January 4, 2013 9:06 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Vision2020] Another Answer to School Shootings . . .<BR></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV>Donovan,<BR><BR>Heath care is expensive. Maybe it shouldn't be but it is. Let's look at car insurance first. Why do we need car insurance? Well, you could get into a car accident and (accidentally) total <SPAN id=misspell-4 class=mark>someone's</SPAN> car. Maybe the road was icy and you slipped through a stop sign. If you can only afford to pay $2000 in that instance, then the person who's car you've (accidentally) wrecked is SOL. Thus, given that accidents like this are possible, it stands to reason that some folks need some assurance that they will be adequately compensated in the worst case scenario. Thus, the need for insurance.<BR><BR>For heath care, the situation is even worse. Here we don't just have our usual wants and desires like having a nice car. We've got interests of quality of life, fear of death, etc. In a society ruled by supply and demand, it isn't too surprising that heath care costs are outrageous. People will pay anything when
life and heath are concerned.<BR><BR>The fact is, there is some risk that your heath care costs over the next year will exceed the $2,000 that you can afford. In fact, the probability that they exceed those costs at least once during the course of your life is close to 100%. Just to give you an idea of how easy that is, last year I had what I thought were symptoms of a heart attack. I went immediately to my doctors office but they sent me across the street to the emergency room. Preliminary checks were fine but since I was 53 with a family history of heart disease they suggested that I spend the night, where I could be monitored and further tests could be run. Eventually they recommended that I get an <SPAN id=misspell-5 class=mark>angiogram</SPAN>. Long story short, I paid over $2,300 to find out I was OK. And that is because I have pretty good insurance! If I had no heath insurance, the bill would have been in excess of $11,000 (which would have been
the bill for the emergency room stay and tests alone). <BR><BR>So the real question is: Who should encumber your heath care risk, a risk associated with being mortal and living in an imperfect world? On the old system, you'd have gone to the emergency room and those costs would have been spread among others. That was a very inefficient system where all of us encumbered costs. I see <SPAN id=misspell-6 class=mark>Obamacare</SPAN> as an attempt to make a more efficient and fair system. Not perfect, of course.<BR><BR>I think that this is one case in which (ideally) BIG government could provide a better solution since we could do away with insurance companies altogether and have the government play that role. Why the government? They are the only entity willing to play that role without seeking a profit, so they would limit costs substantially. (I'm speaking ideally, of course.) Unfortunately, we also live in a country where just suggesting something like
this gets you labeled as a "communist" so that option is out! As it is, all we seem to be able to do is spread the costs beforehand and, as you note, this eventually has a much greater impact on the economically less fortunate.<BR><BR>There is clearly a problem here. What is your solution?<BR><BR>Joe<BR><BR>
<DIV>On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 8:22 AM, Donovan Arnold <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
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<DIV><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-7 class=mark>Obamacare</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> isn't health care, it is an federal tax om the poor. Health insurance isn't health care. I would like a single payer care system. You either buy your own, or you pay a health care tax to the government and you get access to health care. </SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV><SPAN>The way Obama wants it now I would pay $4000 a year to my employer for health <SPAN><SPAN>insurance</SPAN></SPAN>, and then another $3000 in a <SPAN><SPAN>deductible</SPAN></SPAN> to the health insurance company, plus $45 for every doctor visit. So I pay $7200 for what would cost me $2000 worth of care. I cannot afford the $7200 on a nursing assistant salary. I can afford only the $2000. Obama wants to force me to pay the extra $5000, which is unfair and budget busting. Who needs that $5000 more, me or an insurance company executive?</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11px"><SPAN>Basically, he is just stealing my tax return, because I am not going to pay $5000 extra for medical expenses. That is just too much damn money for me. <VAR></VAR></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV><SPAN>Donovan J. Arnold</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; MIN-HEIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px"></DIV><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Joe Campbell <<A href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</A>><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Donovan Arnold <<A href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</A>> <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Scott Dredge <<A href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</A>>; viz <<A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A>> <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, January 3, 2013 2:26 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Vision2020] Another Answer to School Shootings . . .<BR></FONT></DIV><BR>
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<DIV>If you don't like <SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-8 class=mark>Obamacare</SPAN></SPAN> what kind of <SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-9 class=mark>healthcare</SPAN></SPAN> system would you prefer?<BR><BR>On Jan 3, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Donovan Arnold <<A href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
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<DIV><SPAN>Why do we care what </SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-10 class=mark>Bouma</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> thinks? I don't like <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-11 class=mark>Obamacare</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> either. It is simply a tax on people that cannot afford to give money to fraud artists called insurance companies. </DIV>
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<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; MIN-HEIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px"></DIV><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Joe Campbell <<A href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</A>><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Scott Dredge <<A href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</A>> <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> viz <<A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A>> <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B>
Wednesday, January 2, 2013 7:36 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Vision2020] Another Answer to School Shootings . . .<BR></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV>What is the deal with the alleged connection between <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-12 class=mark>Obamacare</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> and (supposed) "corporate welfare to big <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-13 class=mark>pharma</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>," as you say Scott? That is clearly what he's getting at. I confess ignorance on this matter -- meaning, I have no idea whether there is a link between the two or not. Is there a link? Does anyone know if the comment has any basis? Of course, big <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-14 class=mark>pharma</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> has been consistently helped by big government but that was true before Obama and as far as I can tell both <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-15 class=mark>Dems</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> and <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-16 class=mark>Repubs</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> have been guilty of this sin. Is there something in <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-17 class=mark>Obamacare</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> that I've missed
suggesting that the situation is likely to get worse? Joe<BR><BR>
<DIV>On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 5:27 PM, Scott Dredge <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
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<DIV dir=ltr>It's interesting that <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-18 class=mark>Bouma</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> chooses to list his biases for his 'ideas' on preventing massacres. Vouchers = parents are allowed to send their kids to schools with better security (and as an added bonus <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-19 class=mark>Bouma</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> essentially lists that the vouchers target teacher's unions). And now, he pretty much writes that preventing kids from being medicated will prevent shootings (and as an added bonus, <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-20 class=mark>Obamacare</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> is stopped and that thus corporate welfare to big <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-21 class=mark>pharma</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> would be curtailed). This is pretty much the worst spin I've ever seen put on anything. If he continues in this vein, I'm guessing that his next move will be '[insert any conservative cause] will prevent school
shootings because [insert any random bullshit] and as an added bonus [insert underlying Biblical or financial justification]'.<BR><BR>
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<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; MIN-HEIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px"></DIV>From: <A href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</A><BR>Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 13:41:58 -0800<BR>To: <A href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</A><BR>CC: <A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A>
<DIV><BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Another Answer to School Shootings . . .<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>It should also be noted that those shooters, identified in the article linked by <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-22 class=mark>Bouma's</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> comment, wore under garments (so it has been reported by a source best left <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-23 class=mark>un</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> identified). Could the donning of undergarments have been a contributing factor in the commission of these heinous murders?</DIV>
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<DIV>If so, Moscow, you can feel safe with me. I haven't worn underwear since 1968.
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<DIV><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-24 class=mark>Seeya</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> round town, Moscow, because . . .</DIV>
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<DIV>"Moscow Cares"</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.moscowcares.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.moscowcares.com/</A></DIV>
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<DIV>Tom Hansen</DIV>
<DIV>Moscow, Idaho</DIV>
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<DIV><BR>On Jan 2, 2013, at 1:27 PM, Joe Campbell <<A href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV>The article that <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-25 class=mark>Bouma</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> refers to and his use of it provide nice examples of fallacious reasoning. In the article, there is a list of school shooters and then the claim that all of them (not all school shooters but everyone on the list) happened to be prescribed some kind of medication, though in some instances the medication is listed merely as "Med for Depression." Then the claim that the medications are responsible and so we should reject Obama-care!<BR><BR>One fallacy is the confusion of correlation and causation. All the shooters drank water as well but that doesn't mean that drinking water was the cause of the shootings. One needs to establish at least "4 cells" of information in order to make a case for a causal relation: How many took the <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-26 class=mark>meds</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> and became shooters? How many didn't take the <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN
id=misspell-27 class=mark>meds</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> and became shooters? How many took the <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-28 class=mark>meds</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> and didn't become shooters? How many didn't take the <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-29 class=mark>meds</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> and didn't become shooters? Correlation fallacies focus on just one bit of this information, In this case, we don't really even get the first cell of info since we don't know that the shooters took the <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-30 class=mark>meds</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>, just that they were prescribed medication (not sure how we could know this latter point either, by the way) -- and a variety of <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-31 class=mark>meds</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> to boot, some unknown or listed just as "Med for Depression."<BR><BR>Today's logic lesson was brought to you by Starbucks coffee!<BR><BR></DIV>
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<DIV>On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Art Deco <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr>Does this message from <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-32 class=mark>Bouma</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> auger a merging of Freeze Church ans Christ Church?<BR><BR>w.<BR></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV>On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Tom Hansen <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR></DIV>
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<DIV><image.<SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-33 class=mark>jpeg</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>></DIV>
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<DIV><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap; FONT-SIZE: 15px"><A href="https://chumly.com/n/19166c9" rel=nofollow target=_blank>https://chumly.com/n/19166c9</A></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap; FONT-SIZE: 15px"> </SPAN><BR>
<DIV><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-34 class=mark>Seeya</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> round town, Moscow, because . . .</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>"Moscow Cares"</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.moscowcares.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.moscowcares.com/</A></DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#888888>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV>Tom Hansen</DIV>
<DIV>Moscow, Idaho</DIV>
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<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#888888><BR><BR clear=all><SPAN class=yiv1388956964HOEnZb><FONT color=#888888><BR>-- <BR>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR><A href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</A><BR><BR><IMG src="http://gfx1.hotmail.com/mail/w4/pr04/ltr/i_safe.gif"><BR></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV><SPAN>=======================================================</SPAN><BR><SPAN>List services made available by First Step Internet,</SPAN><BR><SPAN>serving the communities of the <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-39 class=mark>Palouse</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> since 1994.</SPAN><BR><SPAN> <A href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.fsr.net/</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN> <A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN>=======================================================</SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>======================================================= List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-40
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<DIV class=yiv1388956964im><BR>=======================================================<BR>List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>serving the communities of the <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-42 class=mark>Palouse</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> since 1994.<BR> <A href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.fsr.net/</A><BR> <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN id=misspell-43 class=mark>mailto</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>:<A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>=======================================================<BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV><VAR></VAR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV><BR><BR></DIV></DIV><VAR id=yui-ie-cursor></VAR></div></body></html>