<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Here's my beef. Since Reagan Conservatives have been trying to cut government programs. Yet why is every conservative favorably inclined toward the NRA plan, which is just more big government? 99.9% of the time we're told by conservatives that you can't trust government, that they are inept. Yet not here.</div><div><br></div><div>And why did you, Scott, in your previous post, suppose that the burden is on those who oppose the NRA to explain why it is economically infeasible? Is that how it works? I can put forth any proposal I want and it's up to you to refute it or I get to keep talking about it?</div><div><br></div><div>Tell me the details of the plan and if you can't do it -- which you can't -- then it's not really a plan.<br><br>On Dec 22, 2012, at 1:13 PM, Scott Dredge <<a href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div><span></span></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><Who is likely to gain, both financially and politically if 130,000 schools were suddenly required to procure armed security for their campuses?></span></div><div><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><br></span></div><div><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">Good - we need more home grown jobs with decent pay & benefits. That's just a positive side effect.</span></div><div><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><br></span></div><div><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">Who are the financial and political losers, what are their beefs, and where are they drawing their line in the sand?<br></span><br><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">-Scott</span></div><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "><br>On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:37 PM, "Tom Hansen" <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite" style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "><span></span></div><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; ">Here is an accumulation of NRA supporters. Hint: They are ALL gun clubs and gun manufacturers.</div><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "><br></div><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px; white-space: nowrap; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: none; "><a href="http://www.nrafoundation.org/about/corporate/clubs.asp">http://www.nrafoundation.org/about/corporate/clubs.asp</a></span></div><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px; white-space: nowrap; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></div><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px; white-space: nowrap; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);">Here is a list of NRA corporate sponsors (not a PTA in the bunch)</span></div><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px; white-space: nowrap; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469);"><br></span></div><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 19px; white-space: nowrap; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: none; "><a href="http://www.friendsofnra.org/corporate-sponsors.aspx">http://www.friendsofnra.org/corporate-sponsors.aspx</a></span></div><div><br><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; ">Who is likely to gain, both financially and politically if 130,000 schools were suddenly required to procure armed security for their campuses?</div><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "><br></div><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; ">Now, "As for unreasonable people . . . "</div><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "><br></div><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; ">Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .</div><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "><br></div><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; ">"Moscow Cares"</div><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "><a href="http://www.MoscowCares.com">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "> </div><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "><div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div> </div></div></div><div style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "><br>On Dec 22, 2012, at 11:54 AM, Scott Dredge <<a href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite" style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "><div>
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Joe,<br><br>You may ultimately be right that 'it is a bad plan', but obviously not everyone has come to that same conclusion. IMO it would be a good use of time to FULLY vet that proposal along with its advantages (if any) and disadvantages. And if you know things that others don't and it's all crystal clear to you, then by all means shoot holes in the idea and preferably with cold hard verifiable facts and statistics.<br><br><<span style="">it might draw shooters since most of them are suicidal as well as homicidal><br>Have the FBI profilers weigh in on this<br>Have mental health professionals weigh in on this<br><br><</span><span style="">The plan is economically unfeasible.><br>Show the economic numbers in comparison to the price of unleashed mayhem<br>Put forth all ideas of funding prevention programs and similarly fully vet each of those ideas<br><br>Ultimately the plan either stands up to detailed scrutiny or can be demonstrably shown as unfeasible. unwise, etc. The NRA says this is the answer and they have legions of supporters that take that as the gospel truth since this 'group think' seems to be a human attribute as can be seen almost everywhere in politics, religion, v2020, and so on.<br><br>Reasonable people can clearly see the truth when it's presented clearly, crisply, and - above all - accurately. As for unreasonable people, there's no hope for them.<br><br>-Scott</span><br><br><div><div id="SkyDrivePlaceholder"></div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 11:11:19 -0800<br>From: <a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</a><br>CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh?<br><br>Gary,<br><br>I'm happy to discuss this issue with you but that would mean we would have to discuss it. People keep mentioning specific criticisms about the NRA plan, referring you and others to articles and television interviews where the plan is discussed and dismissed, yet I don't see any real discussion of the plan from its supporters. I have not seen many responses to the criticisms other than "It might work." Like that was a reason for seriously the plan.<br>
<br>Let me be more specific. Here are two recent criticisms that have not yet been responded to. They are recent, so maybe that is the reason: one by Dan and one by Sunil. Sunil writes:<br><br>With regard to the NRA response: As my memory serves me, I think we've had shootouts at the following locations in the last 12-18 months:<br>
-an elementary school;<br>-a shopping mall;<br>-a cinema;<br>-a Sikh temple;<br>-a political rally (that was >18 months ago, I think).<br>Should we have armed guards to protect us from each other at all of those locations?<br>
<br>This broadens the economic argument that I was giving. The plan is economically unfeasible. It isn't JUST that it is irresponsible -- a huge federal program in a time of economic crisis -- it is unfeasible.<br><br>
Second, Dan notes that there are questions about the need for the plan. He writes: "<span style="">there was significant security present when Gabrielle Giffords was shot." Why think the security will help? You are ready to launch a huge governmental program and it isn't even clear that it will do any good. Saundra noted that it might draw shooters since most of them are suicidal as well as homicidal.<br>
<br>So how do you or any others respond to these criticisms of the NRA plan? Let's discuss it. I want to get this over with because this is a bad plan and we are wasting a lot of time talking about it. Let's see why it is a bad plan and move on to a better plan.<br>
<br>Joe<br></span><br><div class="ecxgmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 6:37 AM, Gary Crabtree <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="ecxgmail_quote" style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<u></u>
<div style="padding-left:10px;padding-right:10px;padding-top:15px" lang="EN-US">
<div><font face="Calibri">I thought the point here was to discuss options. Do you
imagine that being extra unpleasant lends an extra level of credence to your
point of view? </font></div>
<div><font face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Calibri">g</font></div>
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<div><br></div>
<div style="background:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm
CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm">Saundra Lund</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 21, 2012 8:18 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="mailto:moscowlocksmith@gmail.com
CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:moscowlocksmith@gmail.com">'Gary Crabtree'</a> ; <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">'viz'</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Huh?</div></div></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;font-size:11pt">It
worked soo well at Columbine, didn’t it?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;font-size:11pt">Confrontation
by the armed officer on campus & the exchange of fire drove one of the
shooters <b>back into the school</b> to continue the slaughter. There’s a
stellar success!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;font-size:11pt">Oops
– but don’t confuse you with reality & facts, right?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;font-size:11pt">Saundra<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d;font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:'Tahoma','sans-serif';font-size:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-family:'Tahoma','sans-serif';font-size:10pt"> <a href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Gary
Crabtree<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 21, 2012 1:40 PM<br><b>To:</b> Joe
Campbell<br><b>Cc:</b> viz<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020]
Huh?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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